USA Rugby WHY??????????

pwhaling


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so, USA Rugby has released their 2012/2013 game management guidelines. For the most part, I think it is a good document which puts a lot of black and white onto gray areas. Then I get to the balls out section (page 14 if anyone is interested) and their direction is once the ball is play able, one or two hands on means the ball is out. At least that debate has been settled over here. I'm wondering what others think about this?
 

ddjamo


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hey man...the old Scott from niagara watched me today in waterloo...mentioned you when I told him and my AR's that I was going to get some poutine...said you do the same.

I just stick with the ontario definition wherever I am. so...no...it's not really settled over here as that published definition still leaves much open with the use of the word "playable."
 

OB..


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I don't like "hands on is out" because it means the scrum half can in fact be tackled before the ball has left the scrum. I prefer to give the scrum half a little time to actually get the ball out.
 

pwhaling


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I don't like "hands on is out" because it means the scrum half can in fact be tackled before the ball has left the scrum. I prefer to give the scrum half a little time to actually get the ball out.

I'm not big on this either. I'm with ddjamo (about using the Ontario definition, not the poutine. Tried it once can't figure it out). I'm not going to alter my game. If asked during the PMB about hands on being out, I tell them no, but I also tell them that they keep their hands off of the ball until they are ready to play, that this whole problem goes away. I've had some success with this approach.

ddjamo, how was the game? They are usually hard fought.
 

Phil E


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so, USA Rugby has released their 2012/2013 game management guidelines. For the most part, I think it is a good document which puts a lot of black and white onto gray areas. Then I get to the balls out section (page 14 if anyone is interested) and their direction is once the ball is play able, one or two hands on means the ball is out. At least that debate has been settled over here. I'm wondering what others think about this?

What do I think?
I think that document issues guidelines that are not supported in law.

The main problem might be my perception of the American mentality, which is highlighted by your own statement.
it is a good document which puts a lot of black and white onto gray areas

Why do you feel the need to turn grey into black and white? The laws are grey in areas for a reason. To allow the referee the latitude to keep the game going and not have to blindly follow the laws regardless of the situation.

I once asked a senior referee manager who went to America to do some training what he thought of American referees.
"they know all the laws........and are determined to use every one of them".

Now that might have been a bit of a sweeping statement, but I suppose it leads to a question:
Do traditional American sports have black and white laws, with no grey areas?
 

SimonSmith


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Phil - generally, yes. Soccer would be the obvious exception, and maybe ice hockey, but all other ones have clearly defined laws.

The GMG is a (bad) attempt to create uniformly applicable standards across the game, and ensure, so far as possible, the same thing gets called the same way every time. Because, y'know, that's how real life is.

[Sidenote/vent] USA Rugby is, without doubt, the most chronically mismanaged body I have ever worked with. Beyond words. [/sidenote/vent]
 

pwhaling


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Phil - generally, yes. Soccer would be the obvious exception, and maybe ice hockey, but all other ones have clearly defined laws.

The GMG is a (bad) attempt to create uniformly applicable standards across the game, and ensure, so far as possible, the same thing gets called the same way every time. Because, y'know, that's how real life is.

[Sidenote/vent] USA Rugby is, without doubt, the most chronically mismanaged body I have ever worked with. Beyond words. [/sidenote/vent]

I started writing this long rambling response, and then I saw this response which covered my point a little more eloquently than mine.
 

OB..


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I am constantly amazed at not only the detail in the laws of US Football, but also at the fact that the commentators seems to know them. One of the channels we get here even has a former official on hand to give expert testimony.
 

pwhaling


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OB..:216872 said:
I am constantly amazed at not only the detail in the laws of US Football, but also at the fact that the commentators seems to know them. One of the channels we get here even has a former official on hand to give expert testimony.

I believe they have rules not laws.
(sorry couldn't resist)
 

Ian_Cook


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Do traditional American sports have black and white laws, with no grey areas?

Yes, many of them do.

NFL especially has Rules that nail stuff down to the nth degree. This is not surpising given that there are SEVEN officials (referee, umpire, head linesman, line judge, field judge, side judge, and back judge). The also have a replay official who has access to up to 20 different camera angles. No room for grey areas; they would be a veritable minefield.

For example, out of bounds rules. If you think ours are confusing, read this...

If any part of a player's body or clothing touches the white border around the field perimeter, that player is out of bounds.
If the player is carrying the ball, then the ball is dead at that spot.
A player who steps out of bounds cannot be the first player to touch a thrown or kicked ball.
If the ball touches another player first--such as a tipped pass--then the player returning from out of bounds can catch it
Any player who goes out of bounds must attempt to get back on the field as soon as possible.
If he doesn't, he can be flagged for a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.
If a fumbled ball touches the white border it is dead, and the team that fumbled the ball retains possession at the spot where the fumble occurred--not where the ball went out of bounds.
if a fumbled ball rolls or bounces into the defensive team's end zone and goes out of bounds from there, then it's a touchback, and the defensive team gets possession of the ball at its own 20-yard line.
If an offensive player fumbles the ball in his own end zone and it bounces out of bounds, it's a safety, which is 2 points for the defense.
The game clock stops when a ball carrier steps out of bounds.
For most of the game, the clock restarts when the officials spot the ball for the next play from scrimmage and the referee signals the clock operator to wind the clock, except, during the last two minutes of the first half and the last five minutes of the fourth quarter, the clock starts only when the ball is snapped for the next play.
A receiver catching the ball at the sidelines must get both feet in bounds and maintain control of the ball for the catch to be legal.
 

smeagol


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[Sidenote/vent] USA Rugby is, without doubt, the most chronically mismanaged body I have ever worked with. Beyond words. [/sidenote/vent]

I think one of the major issues is that it is trying to manage what is still in many ways a grassroots game across a large area.

That being said, I'll certainly bear this in mind, as my union's ref chair has been in touch with the regional society regarding younger refs. The sad part is, almost all of the other refs in the union are old enough to be my father.
 

SimonSmith


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If the US contingent is interested, I can start a separate thread on the fragmentation of the organizing bodies, and how this playing out in Virginia/Mid Atlantic.

If not, I shall fume quietly in my corner and plot my next act of sedition
 

Phil E


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If not, I shall fume quietly in my corner and plot my next act of sedition

Infamy, Infamy..................they've all got it informe. :biggrin:
Up the revolution!
 

Dixie


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If the US contingent is interested, I can start a separate thread on the fragmentation of the organizing bodies, and how this playing out in Virginia/Mid Atlantic.

If not, I shall fume quietly in my corner and plot my next act of sedition
Go for it, irrespective of your countrymen's interest. Many of us over here are fascinated by US politics - whether it's Taxmageddon, the USA Game Guidelines and institutional management or the dual between Dame Maggie Smith and Shirley MacLaine - and would love to hear more.

Will a trillion-dollar government spending cut damage USA Rugby?
 

Browner

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I don't like "hands on is out" because it means the scrum half can in fact be tackled before the ball has left the scrum. I prefer to give the scrum half a little time to actually get the ball out.

I agree ...... in is in, & out is out......... the process of taking the ball out IS by definition not yet out.

Lets give BoD to the positive play, not encourage negative disruptive messy ugly play & try and have the running passing evading game that is more enjoyable ...
 

Browner

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No such thing.

There is only legal play and illegal play.

Davet ..... of course you are right

I was in the audience listening to the advice of a "Level 3 Ref" recently who was guiding us on how he approaches match

visualisation techniques
pre-match captain/coach management
etc

what became clear was .......
a] rewarding positive play & discouraging negative play was his 'mantra' - he claimed most ref's at that level follow suit !
b] he didn't know the definition of how a maul is created !
c] many many 'technical' law breeches are 'overlooked' in favour of game flow ...

but then, his was only an opinion also.!
 

Taff


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I don't like "hands on is out" because it means the scrum half can in fact be tackled before the ball has left the scrum. I prefer to give the scrum half a little time to actually get the ball out.
Our team had a ref last season who insisted that rucks and scrums were over as soon as the SH put a hand on the ball. It was one of the messiest games I saw all year. :frown:
 

didds

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Our team had a ref last season who insisted that rucks and scrums were over as soon as the SH put a hand on the ball. It was one of the messiest games I saw all year. :frown:


I bet that ref "sees" a match every week that is similarly scrappy, and wonders when the law makers will sort it out...


didds
 

Taff


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I bet that ref "sees" a match every week that is similarly scrappy, and wonders when the law makers will sort it out.
Exactly. I'm sure he blissfully reffed games with scrappy frustrating rucks and scrums for years, not realising that he was the one making the rucks and scrums scrappy; which reminds me of the old joke about bad drivers: "I have never been involved in an accident - but I've caused dozens". Ie they blissfully go on their merry little way, totally oblivious to the trail a frustration and destruction in their wake. :biggrin:

That particular ref must have been told at some time "Look mate. You're calling the rucks and scrums over as soon as the SH has his "hands on". You do realise that isn't what the lawbook says don't you?" I've read it several times - and it doesn't mention "hands" anywhere.

16.6 SUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.
 
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