Welsh Rugby Union / Regions mess

[Scarlet Al]

Amid the mess, I have heard a rumour that a number of referees in Wales have suspended their services in a move to take a stand against the Union...!

Astonishing really.

(I cannot guarantee the validity of this!!!)

 

[menace]

Amid the mess, I have heard a rumour that a number of referees in Wales have suspended their services in a move to take a stand against the Union...!

Astonishing really.

(I cannot guarantee the validity of this!!!)

Soory...I may have missed the thread, but what's the mess that's affecting the referees?

 

[leaguerefaus]

Soory...I may have missed the thread, but what's the mess that's affecting the referees?

+1
Very curious to hear what's happening...

 

[Taff]

Scrum V spoke about this on yesterday's programme, but I must admit having watched it, I'm none the wiser what the WRU want and what the 4 regions want.

I know the regions are concerned that they don't know what competitions they may be involved with next season (will there be a Heineken Cup? If so, will the Welsh regions be involved?) but I still can't see how the WRU alone can sort that out.

 

[Account Deleted]

Why do you think they're called the "Worst Run Union" by fans? The whole set up in Wales is falling apart. All very sad.

 

[irishref]

Unfortunately the mess that is the WRU at the moment will have negative effects on the rest of the Rabo Direct teams. All very sad.

Why don't Wales simply adopt the tried and trusted full central control model other nations have had success with? Is there really such a groundswell of anti WRU feeling amongst the traditional clubs (not talking about the hastily created regions) and fans? Are the big sponsors really that powerful?

Any news on the proposed valleys franchise/team?

Get it sorted Wales, we need you and don't want to see you jump ship to perfidious Albion (hehehe)

 

[Scarlet Al]

In a nutshell then (kind of!) - as I see it:

5 seasons ago, Wales' 4 regions signed up to a participation agreement based on a 10 year term with a get out clause after 5.
This dictates how much money the regions get from the WRU each season through TV deals etc. - The monies are passed to the Unions THROUGH the WRU - It acts as a distributor if you like.
Also included in the PA is the issue of the 4th Autumn International outside of the IRB window (A week before Heineken Cup games usually).
Obviously, a lot has happened in 5 years - Also bare in mind that there is a salary cap of £3.5m in Wales.
The regions - Through RRW (Regional Rugby Wales) - Similar to PRL, have an agreement that they will not play any player who is centrally contracted.
Roger Lewis (Chief Executive of the WRU group) is doing a decent job of paying off the debt of the Millennium Stadium earlier than it needs to be paid off - Many people in Wales (regional supporters mainly you could say) think this excess cash would be better off funding the regions.

Figures:

There's loads of figures which have been brandished about - Not 100% sure which are totally correct, but I've seen these ones passed about quite a bit: (I take no responsibility if these are wrong and certainly cannot guarantee the accuracy!!!)

The regions seem to be funded by the Union to the tune of about £1.5m each per year - This would continue if the regions were to sign the PA extension - The deadline is the 31st of this month.
It is alleged that the regions have now been offered a slice of the BT Sport cake with the English clubs - I've heard it could be a figure in excess of £4.5m each per year.
If they DON'T sign the PA extension though - which doesn't look at all likely at present, there are issues which would probably have to be taken through the courts - Contractual issues I'd have though.

Also - this would mean the regions would not be bound to the WRU's control - obviously. Couple of issues here:
The Welsh regions haven't given notice to ERC which means the WRU would have to find 4 teams to play in European competitions next season (if there are any). These wouldn't be the regions, obviously. Problem!
And what about the 4th international? Who'll play for Wales in that? The regions won't have to release anyone! Next year's 4th International was not announced long ago, but could this have been premature?

There are rumors that the WRU want to effectively create 3 new teams - All centrally controlled. West Wales, North Wales and South East apparently. Where would they play?! Would there be enough quality players?

So the regions either sign the PA and take no real term increase - I understand not even inflation or they don't - Then what?! Hmmm!

There are apparently pre match pitch side protests in the Boxing Day derby between Scarlets and Ospreys.

I take no responsibility if any of the information above is incorrect!

 

[Account Deleted]

Unfortunately the mess that is the WRU at the moment will have negative effects on the rest of the Rabo Direct teams. All very sad.

Why don't Wales simply adopt the tried and trusted full central control model other nations have had success with? Is there really such a groundswell of anti WRU feeling amongst the traditional clubs (not talking about the hastily created regions) and fans? Are the big sponsors really that powerful?

Any news on the proposed valleys franchise/team?

Get it sorted Wales, we need you and don't want to see you jump ship to perfidious Albion (hehehe)

Hopefully the Rabo will die, and soon. The costs of playing in Italy and Scotland far outweigh the money we make from the home games against them. Sadly the Scots and the Italians bring little to the league. The only interest we have in the Rabo is finishing at least 3rd out of the 4 Welsh sides so that we play in the HEC next year. Once that is secured, who cares?! The sooner we are out of it the better.

Central contracts work for some and not others. England and France do not use them. Also why do you assume a "one size fits all" solution? Furthermore, The WRU does not have the funds to support it.

There is, almost, no trust in Roger Lewis and the WRU blazers. This feeling is shared throughout Welsh rugby from the , so called, regions, the semi pro clubs and down to the clubs in the sticks.

There will be no Valleys side. They have neither the money nor the support despite the lies in the VR proposal to support a "region" The whole notion of VR was a cynical piece of electioneering by an MP.

Our natural links are with the English clubs. We (the supporters and clubs) want to be playing in traditional fixtures, such as Cardiff Vs Leicester and Llanelli Vs Gloucester and not Connacht, Ulster etc.

 

[Account Deleted]

In a nutshell then (kind of!) - as I see it:

5 seasons ago, Wales' 4 regions signed up to a participation agreement based on a 10 year term with a get out clause after 5.
This dictates how much money the regions get from the WRU each season through TV deals etc. - The monies are passed to the Unions THROUGH the WRU - It acts as a distributor if you like.
Also included in the PA is the issue of the 4th Autumn International outside of the IRB window (A week before Heineken Cup games usually).
Obviously, a lot has happened in 5 years - Also bare in mind that there is a salary cap of £3.5m in Wales.
The regions - Through RRW (Regional Rugby Wales) - Similar to PRL, have an agreement that they will not play any player who is centrally contracted.
Roger Lewis (Chief Executive of the WRU group) is doing a decent job of paying off the debt of the Millennium Stadium earlier than it needs to be paid off - Many people in Wales (regional supporters mainly you could say) think this excess cash would be better off funding the regions.

Figures:

There's loads of figures which have been brandished about - Not 100% sure which are totally correct, but I've seen these ones passed about quite a bit: (I take no responsibility if these are wrong and certainly cannot guarantee the accuracy!!!)

The regions seem to be funded by the Union to the tune of about £1.5m each per year - This would continue if the regions were to sign the PA extension - The deadline is the 31st of this month.
It is alleged that the regions have now been offered a slice of the BT Sport cake with the English clubs - I've heard it could be a figure in excess of £4.5m each per year.
If they DON'T sign the PA extension though - which doesn't look at all likely at present, there are issues which would probably have to be taken through the courts - Contractual issues I'd have though.

Also - this would mean the regions would not be bound to the WRU's control - obviously. Couple of issues here:
The Welsh regions haven't given notice to ERC which means the WRU would have to find 4 teams to play in European competitions next season (if there are any). These wouldn't be the regions, obviously. Problem!
And what about the 4th international? Who'll play for Wales in that? The regions won't have to release anyone! Next year's 4th International was not announced long ago, but could this have been premature?

There are rumors that the WRU want to effectively create 3 new teams - All centrally controlled. West Wales, North Wales and South East apparently. Where would they play?! Would there be enough quality players?

So the regions either sign the PA and take no real term increase - I understand not even inflation or they don't - Then what?! Hmmm!

There are apparently pre match pitch side protests in the Boxing Day derby between Scarlets and Ospreys.

I take no responsibility if any of the information above is incorrect!

A 5 year deal renewable for a further 5 years with no increase in "funding" Or a 10 year contract reviewable after 5? The "regions" and the WRU differ as to the facts here. Who in their right mind would sign up to either?

Of course there is a big lie in the claim that the WRU "fund" the regions. They do not! They act as a distributor for the monies owed to the regions for their participation in various competitions. They also PAY for the use of the regions players when on Wales duty. There's no handout it is money that belongs to the regions by right and that the union, allegedly, takes it's cut.

The extra AI deprives the regions of THEIR players a week before round 3 of the HEC so whilst the opposition players are preparing to play in the HEC our are still with "Team" Wales (whatever that means).

The protests have been reported by the press. The "Regional Supporters' Clubs" have made no such claim.

It;s important NOT to trust either the BBC Wales (Izvestia) or the Western Mail (Pravda) with their shameful non reporting of the facts.

 

[Ian_Cook]

So if it all turns to custard, and the Welsh Regions join the AP, and then after three or four years, two or three of them are relegated to the RFU Championship, then where will Welsh Rugby be?

 

[Scarlet Al]

A 5 year deal renewable for a further 5 years with no increase in "funding" Or a 10 year contract reviewable after 5? The "regions" and the WRU differ as to the facts here. Who in their right mind would sign up to either?

Of course there is a big lie in the claim that the WRU "fund" the regions. They do not! They act as a distributor for the monies owed to the regions for their participation in various competitions. They also PAY for the use of the regions players when on Wales duty. There's no handout it is money that belongs to the regions by right and that the union, allegedly, takes it's cut.

The extra AI deprives the regions of THEIR players a week before round 3 of the HEC so whilst the opposition players are preparing to play in the HEC our are still with "Team" Wales (whatever that means).

The protests have been reported by the press. The "Regional Supporters' Clubs" have made no such claim.

It;s important NOT to trust either the BBC Wales (Izvestia) or the Western Mail (Pravda) with their shameful non reporting of the facts.

Want a bet?

 

[OB..]

It;s important NOT to trust either the BBC Wales (Izvestia) or the Western Mail (Pravda) with their shameful non reporting of the facts.

Russian saying:-

В Правде нет известий, в Известиях нет правды.

(In Pravda there is no news, in Izvestia there is no truth.)

 

[Account Deleted]

Want a bet?

Breaking news. It certainly had not been announced when the BBC and the "Fail" announced it.

 

[L'irlandais]

For those, like myself, not up to speed on the WRU Shambles! See this BBC article

The Welsh Rugby Union had set a deadline of 31 December to sign a new agreement, replacing the current five-year deal that expires in June 2014. But BBC Wales Sport understands that Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets will not sign.

Why haven't the WRU offered central contracts along the lines of the IRFU?

A PriceWaterhouseCoopers report in 2012 suggested the WRU and regions to "adopt a closer collaborative approach" with the formation of a management board to enforce it.

 

[Account Deleted]

The report has been "published" in part. We do not have the full details. It is dangerous to read too much into a partial revelation.

The Welsh games does not have the money to centrally contract players. However, I'm not sure of the value of merely copying the Irish model.

The quote you give allegedly from the PWC report does not claim central contract to be the solution. Sadly the BBC reporting is very much a case of tellng you what the WRU wishes you to know and not honest unbiased reporting of the facts. Ask yourself why the report has not been made public in full. The BBC will not ask that question!

 

[Jenko]

For those, like myself, not up to speed on the WRU Shambles! See this BBC article

Why haven't the WRU offered central contracts along the lines of the IRFU?

A PriceWaterhouseCoopers report in 2012 suggested the WRU and regions to "adopt a closer collaborative approach" with the formation of a management board to enforce it.

The Irish 'central contracts' are now reaching the glass ceiling limit and more players are going to go overseas if this article is anything to go by

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rug...french-clubs-after-irfu-talks-stall-1.1638942

 

[L'irlandais]

ATTR, The WRU were not slavishly going to copy the Irish model, talk was only of centrally contracting 6 key players. The IRFU won't say how many it contracts, but it's more like 23 to 30 players or perhaps even more.

Jenko, I agree the IRFU Payroll is at breaking point. If Jamie Heaslip has an offer let him take it, Ireland cannot afford 23 All-stars, as Toulon can. (Nor would we actually want them even if we could afford it.)
Jonathan Sexton was reduced to tears by the IRFU (not budging) ; what did he expect €660,000 (£562,000)? Even if the IRFU halved the number of contracts they could not afford to double the pay of the starting XV, simple as that. Given that Heaslip's current 3 year deal costs the IRFU over €1million, (£278k/year) he's unlikely to get more.

Only other key players concerned, by the 23 January dead-line (are at this point in time) Sean O’Brien, Paul O’Connell and Keith Earls.

Of around* 14 contracts up for renewal, 9 have already been signed ; if P O'C doesn't renew, it'll be because he's retiring (maybe to coach overseas) : I'd be surprised if Earls doesn't sign. So you're looking at 2 to 3 players tops, hardly the flood journalists are making it out to be.

3 years extension signed
Donnacha Ryan
Paul Marshall

2 years extension signed
Conor Murray
Rory Best
John Muldoon
Donncha O’Callaghan
Tommy O'Donnell

1 year extension signed
Brian O'Driscoll
Rodney Ah You

Players like Peter O'Mahony, Rob Kearney, Gordon D'Arcy, Ian Madigan, Robbie Henshaw, Cian Healy, Mike Ross and Kieran Marmion are all under contract until June 2015 (& beyond for some) Martin Moore (uncapped) may sign an initial 4 year contract with the IRFU.

*Tom Court may or may not have signed, find no mention on-line.

Let him go I say, Sexton is (so far) viewed as a flop by Racing, if Heaslip also flops that will but an end to much overseas interest. Our players have shone because of the rest days available to them at home. No such protection will be afforded to him abroad, so he'll not preform to the same level. Denis Fogarty has been off the IRFU radar since his move to France, currently playing semi-professional Rugby with SU Agen in the Pro2.

 

[L'irlandais]

.. There will be no Valleys side. They have neither the money nor the support despite the lies in the VR proposal to support a "region"..

Pontypridd CEO suggests that the way forward is with club sides going pro. While the Welsh regions are pointing the finger at the WRU, they too are being accused by some clubs. "Reclaim our Game" says Pontypridd CEO "It is a golden opportunity for the WRU to reform the game in Wales in the interests of all of its member clubs and not in the interests of a few."

Post script to my earlier post on the drain of home-grown players : Players off the IRFU radar are more likely to go abroad to either England or France, in search of game time, in the image of Munster academy lock Brian Hayes & Ulster hooker Nigel Brady both at Aurillac this season. Or like Peter Stringer at Bath, still playing top flight rugby.

 

[Ian_Cook]

[off topic]

Watching Top 14 on TV makes me wonder why any player would even want to play in it (other than the money of course).

The games seem mostly dire affairs. The players are flogged endlessly, for game after game after game for what seems like forever, often playing while still recovering from injuries.

And then there are the pitches. In a word, they are awful; they look like the sort of pitches from the amateur era here about 30 years ago. If Top 14 is such lucrative competition, why can some of these clubs not pay to lay down some proper sand-based rugby fields with good drainage systems and topped off with properly cultured turf. This year the six nations looks like half the games will be played on sub-standard pitches; Millennium Stadium we already know is a basket case, Stade Francais is not much better, and I am hearing that Murrayfield has been infested with some kind of disease that is destroying its surface.

Poor turf has been identified as a leading causes of lower leg injuries in field sports, so laying proper pitches is surely an investment in the future of the game.

 

[matty1194]

[off topic]And then there are the pitches. In a word, they are awful; and I am hearing that Murrayfield has been infested with some kind of disease that is destroying its surface.

Poor turf has been identified as a leading causes of lower leg injuries in field sports, so laying proper pitches is surely an investment in the future of the game.

Ian, the Murrayfield pitch is indeed in a state, had no time to sort itself out between fixtures, the ground staff are working very hard to provide a decent surface. However, all this will be to no avail when 1D come to town and put up a concert on the pitch.

http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/13/11/06/murrayfield-pitch-update