Welsh Rugby Union / Regions mess

[Ian_Cook]

Ian, the Murrayfield pitch is indeed in a state, had no time to sort itself out between fixtures, the ground staff are working very hard to provide a decent surface. However, all this will be to no avail when 1D come to town and put up a concert on the pitch.

http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/13/11/06/murrayfield-pitch-update

“We’ve worked with some of the leading experts in this area to examine and treat one of the best surfaces in world rugby using natural remedies, including the spraying of garlic, but it takes a number of weeks to eradicate the problem and then to recover root strength."

I see Scotland are at home to France in the Six Nations, so the froggies should feel right at home!!

 

[Account Deleted]

Pontypridd CEO suggests that the way forward is with club sides going pro. While the Welsh regions are pointing the finger at the WRU, they too are being accused by some clubs. "Reclaim our Game" says Pontypridd CEO "It is a golden opportunity for the WRU to reform the game in Wales in the interests of all of its member clubs and not in the interests of a few."

Post script to my earlier post on the drain of home-grown players : Players off the IRFU radar are more likely to go abroad to either England or France, in search of game time, in the image of Munster academy lock Brian Hayes & Ulster hooker Nigel Brady both at Aurillac this season. Or like Peter Stringer at Bath, still playing top flight rugby.

The Pontypridd CEO is talking his usual rubbish. There is no money there. The would have the "WRU money" and no more. There is no cash in the Valleys to support the TV money etc.

Regarding your comment about not slavishly following the Irish model. We've had many different "proposals" from the WRU over the last few years. Ranging from the Wales squad being contracted to "key" personnel being contracted. If they can afford it then let them fund the regions properly. They can't it's as simple as that. They even said so a couple of seasons ago.

- - - Updated - - -

Pontypridd CEO suggests that the way forward is with club sides going pro. While the Welsh regions are pointing the finger at the WRU, they too are being accused by some clubs. "Reclaim our Game" says Pontypridd CEO "It is a golden opportunity for the WRU to reform the game in Wales in the interests of all of its member clubs and not in the interests of a few."

Post script to my earlier post on the drain of home-grown players : Players off the IRFU radar are more likely to go abroad to either England or France, in search of game time, in the image of Munster academy lock Brian Hayes & Ulster hooker Nigel Brady both at Aurillac this season. Or like Peter Stringer at Bath, still playing top flight rugby.

The Pontypridd CEO is talking his usual rubbish. There is no money there. The would have the "WRU money" and no more. There is no cash in the Valleys to support the TV money etc.

Regarding your comment about not slavishly following the Irish model. We've had many different "proposals" from the WRU over the last few years. Ranging from the Wales squad being contracted to "key" personnel being contracted. If they can afford it then let them fund the regions properly. They can't it's as simple as that. They even said so a couple of seasons ago.

 

[L'irlandais]

[off topic]...And then there are the pitches. In a word, they are awful; they look like the sort of pitches from the amateur era here about 30 years ago. If Top 14 is such lucrative competition, why can some of these clubs not pay to ...

Hi Ian,
Taking the example of Toulouse the richest club in French Top-flight rugby & perhaps the only Elite club that doesn't depend on a sugar daddy to bank roll their signings. I agree with the idea that their stadium is nothing to write home about.

The sporting complex around the stadium though, houses the club's future, with underage pitches, swimming pool, shop, etc...

Toulouse's current stadium was built between 1978 and 1982. It was renovated at the start of the 'noughties'. However it's 19,500 seats are not enough to have a home semi-final in the H-Cup. The four-time winners have a budget of over €35.4million. (Source (in French))

Breakdown of that; income :20% gate/20% Boutiques/43% partners/8% from the league (LNR)/5% renting out the stadium/4% Brasserie's corporate catering/1% subventions. Expenses : 120 staff, including 33 professional players. The squad's payroll is capped at €9million by the league. However some Top 14 clubs get businesses to pay some players salaries (through images rights) to keep them out of their yearly budget and so get around the salary cap.
They are one of the few clubs to own their own stadium. They recently spent 3 M€ on a training centre, which was cofinanced by local government.

I reckon Thomond Park is better than the stadium itself.
(Only we don't have the surrounding sporting complex to match.)

 

[Dixie]

Poor turf has been identified as a leading causes of lower leg injuries in field sports, so laying proper pitches is surely an investment in the future of the game.

How long before the idea of playing rugby on turf is viewed as quaintly old-fashioned? I recall soccer's failed flirtation with low-capability astroturf in the late seventies and early eighties, but that always seemed a second-best solution, with the ball bouncing oddly and injuries mounting. Sarries' effort at Allianz Park seems to be a more genuine blueprint for the future.

Given that Heaslip's current 3 year deal costs the IRFU over €1million, (£278k/year) he's unlikely to get more.

L'irlandais, as a citizen of one eurozone country living in another, you have a strange view of the true worth of a euro. By my calcualtion, €1m = £833,568 - roughly three times more valuable than you give it credit for!

 

[Camquin]

€1 (£833,568) / 3 years = €33,333 per year = £278k/year

I think this fundamental misunderstanding of press release numbers is at the heart of the problems.
PR men quote the biggest numbers possible to get most impact.
Everyone hears the big numbers and wonders where there share has gone.

Camquin

 

[Browner]

Originally Posted by L'irlandais Given that Heaslip's current 3 year deal costs the IRFU over €1million, (£278k/year) he's unlikely to get more.

L'irlandais, as a citizen of one eurozone country living in another, you have a strange view of the true worth of a euro. By my calcualtion, €1m = £833,568 - roughly three times more valuable than you give it credit for!

?????? £278k x3 = £834

 

[Ian_Cook]

How long before the idea of playing rugby on turf is viewed as quaintly old-fashioned? I recall soccer's failed flirtation with low-capability astroturf in the late seventies and early eighties, but that always seemed a second-best solution, with the ball bouncing oddly and injuries mounting. Sarries' effort at Allianz Park seems to be a more genuine blueprint for the future.

I think that time is a long way down the road yet, although an artificial playing surface would be the perfect solution for Millennium Stadium.

Of all the football codes around the world, you might be forgiven for thinking that American Football is synonymous with "Astroturf", so you are probably thinking that NFL is mostly played on artificial surfaces. Right?

Well, in fact is mostly isn't. Only 13 out of the 32 current NFL teams have fully artificial surfaces, and two of those teams play at the same stadium so only 12 artificial turf stadiums are in use.

Interestingly, the San Franciso 49ers home "Candlestick Park" used to be Astroturf, but they reverted back to Kentucky Bluegrass in 1979. They played at Candlestick Park for the last time last weekend, and next year, they will play at their new "Levi's Stadium" currently under construction in Santa Clara, California. The surface will be Kentucky Bluegrass.

For the record - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/RugbyRefs/NFL-turf.rtf

 

[OB..]

Interestingly, the San Franciso 49ers home "Candlestick Park" used to be Astroturf, but they reverted back to Kentucky Bluegrass in 1979.

IIRC that was because they wanted OJ Simpson, who would only accept if he could play on real grass

 

[Taff]

I think that time is a long way down the road yet, although an artificial playing surface would be the perfect solution for Millennium Stadium.

Especially as the new Blues pitch (literally next door) seems to be working very well.

 

[Account Deleted]

Especially as the new Blues pitch (literally next door) seems to be working very well.

Cardiff's pitch is indeed working well. A pleasure to ref on too! However, they can't have one in the MSCAP due to wanting football's Euro champs to be, in part, held there. You cannot have a totally plastic pitch under their regulations.

 

[winchesterref]

Information neatly laid out in the FAQ section of this website:
http://regionalrugbywales.com

 

[Ian_Cook]

Information neatly laid out in the FAQ section of this website:
http://regionalrugbywales.com

I had to laugh when I read this...

"Next big reality is sheer numbers: The population of South Wales is 1.9m with four Regions and two Premiership Football Teams playing every week. One Region only has 380,000 people over a massive geographic spread. We work hard to achieve our crowds and in light of our demographics we are achieving more than many counterparts in the league."

Massive? Really?

The whole of Wales (21,000 sqkm) is smaller than the area of the Waikato Provincial Union (25,000sqkm) and slightly over 1/3 the size of the Chiefs catchment area. How can one region of Wales be classed as "massive"?

 

[Browner]

Ian,
Happy New year to you [ in case you're not in my mass text blitz at 11.59.59 on 31-12-13 ]

I'd like to commend you on your graphics which are almost always presented cleverly.

Waikato's size is irrelevant, as long as Hamilton airport can receive flights in from the pacific islands & extended area, then local travelling or population logistics are immaterial !

On a tangent note, given this is the 'Golden Generation' of Taffy players & they haven't managed to topple the Kiwi's, will you ever likely experience the pure thrill of congratulating our Celtic cousins in the same way that i've had to enjoy last season ! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25433887

 

[Camquin]

The RRW FAQ is not an impartial document - mind you they are about as rare as rocking horse droppings, especially in disputes as heated as this.
PRL and RRW seem to be bigging up the ESPN deal and playing down everything RFU/WRU and ERC do. But on the other hand the opposite is true of everything the unions say.

The income on offer to the Welsh regions from PRL assumes that the Anglo Welsh league is acceptable to ESPN as the international aspect of the competition they have promised.

It also assumes that WRU and RFU will endorse the competition - or can be forced to by IRB or the Court of Arbitration for Sport or Law Courts.

Have the English clubs agreed to pool the funding they get from the RFU with the funding the regions get from WRU and divide this equally or will the English clubs continue to get more than the £1.5m the Welsh regions get from WRU. If so is this included in the quoted figures or is this separate. If not would English clubs continue to receive more than the Welsh regions - assuming both unions continue this funding.

The regions are not going to match Leicester's 25k crowds every week so will be amongst the poorest sides in an anglo welsh league - even if PRL give each region a 1/16th of the central funding - i.e. every English club agrees to give up 1/3 of its central funding. Something that they have resisted doing before - and are only doing now as they are forced to find someone to play ball with them.

So they will have a higher chance of relegation. There is talk that RRW have been told that no more than one region will ever be relegated, but I cannot see that going uncontested.

I have not heard any discussion of parachute payments - that does not mean that it has not been going on - but some of the funding will be reclaimed as part of this insurance scheme.

Either way at some point a Welsh region will be relegated and will have to survive in the Championship. They may survive for one season but I doubt the RFU will give them any support once they have spent their parachute.

It also seems to assume the unions will continue to pick up referee and insurance costs, or at least makes no mention of it as far as I could see.

Of course I working from the same fragmentary disclosures in press releases every one else is. Which is one of the reasons I have more questons than answers.

Camquin

 

[L'irlandais]

...Massive? Really?...
How can one region of Wales be classed as "massive"?

I was thinking the same thing, from just a French perspective! Then I thought about Mr. Burns reading that article, somewhere in the shade from the hot Summer sun. Perhaps Robbie might like to give the WRU a leaf from WARURA book.

Here's another overlay map to put things in perspective for the Welsh & their "insurmontable" woes :
View attachment 2748

With Visa workers (the likes of my brother-in-law)) Western Australia's population has now 2.5 million. (March 2013 figures) so comparable with/smaller than Welsh census figures.

BBC : Wales is just over 20,000 square kilometres in size. At its widest it's 200 kilometres east to west, and 250 Kilometres north to south.

State of western Australia : Area 976,790 square miles (2,529,875 square km)
Approximate width west to east: 2,500km.
Approximate height, north to south: 3,500km.

In short well over 100 times larger than Wales, even if they don't play all that much Rugby in the heart of the Karijini National Park. Ospreys & Dragons are 'king tiny, so their problem is NOT one of geographical proportions.

 

[Account Deleted]

Totay's RRW statement:

Tuesday 31st December 2013

STATEMENT FROM REGIONAL RUGBY WALES

RRW, on behalf of the four Welsh Regions, confirms that the Regional businesses remain unable to commit to extend the existing Participation Agreement with the WRU by the deadline of 31st December 2013.

Whilst the Welsh Regions, their players and coaches, investors, sponsors, supporters and communities take great pride in their contribution to Welsh Rugby at all levels of the game and remain totally committed to working with the WRU to secure a sustainable and competitive future for professional Rugby in Wales, at this point the WRU remains unable to confirm;

• The existence and structure of any European/Cup Competition for the period 14/15 to 18/19
• The income and distribution from any such competition over the period
• The number of teams participating in the Pro12 league for the period 14/15 to 18/19
• The income and distribution from the Pro12 league over the period, or even the confirmation of a main sponsor

Consequently, the basic definition of “participation” within the legal agreement cannot be confirmed. So the WRU are demanding that the Regions legally commit to their operating costs - without committing in turn to the competition incomes that are their obligation under the agreement.

The WRU do not and could not run their business in such circumstances and neither can the Regions. The WRU hold full responsibility under the Participation Agreement for the Competition platform and TV rights of the Regions and it is astonishing that they have put the four businesses in this position as a result of failing to fulfil their obligations under the agreement, despite having almost two years to resolve the issues involved. As it stands, the Regions do not believe the Participation Agreement reflects the changes and demands of the modern game.

As a result, the position the Regions currently face is that;

• 10/32 games are not confirmed for 14/15 season in just 8 months time – 31% season total
• Season ticket and match day ticket incomes cannot be confirmed
• Sponsor contracts and income cannot be confirmed within contractual deadlines
• Playing kit, merchandise design, orders and income cannot be confirmed within contractual deadlines

The total income currently at risk for the 14/15 season alone amounts to a possible £16m across the four Regions and they are unable to confirm any form of robust business plan and financial forecast beyond May - in just five months time.

At the same time, it is very clear that massive increases in the TV revenues being achieved by the Club game in Europe will dramatically increase the funding gap between the Regions and clubs in France and England over the next five years; well beyond the reach of any potential increases in attendance or commercial revenues; whilst the funding provided to Irish and Scottish teams from their Unions remains significantly greater than that in Wales.

Recognising these stark facts and as a direct result of the position they have been placed in, RRW and the Regions have had no choice but to consider every alternative to secure a truly sustainable future for regional rugby in Wales.

Therefore, RRW and the Regions re-affirm their commitment to the Rugby Champions Cup under the aegis of Six Nations, which will generate a guaranteed £12m additional funding across the four regions over the next three years and help reduce the funding gap compared to the French, English, Irish and Scottish clubs.

A solution must be reached by the end of January 2014. Should this not be possible, the Regions will have no choice but to pursue further competition options immediately.

Having secured this position, the Regions are now able to plan positively based on these options, rather than the destructive alternative of massive cost cutting that they would have no choice but to undertake due to the £16m risk they currently face as part of the existing agreement.

It continues to be the absolute intent and strong desire of RRW and the Regions to work with the WRU in progressing such a positive position for the next five years of professional Rugby in Wales, or indeed to discuss any proposals WRU themselves may have that could provide an even stronger platform for sustainable and competitive professional rugby across Wales.

Without change, professional rugby in Wales will fall further and further behind the rest of the European game.

The Regions’ passionate commitment to developing world-class players in Wales, their investment in infrastructure, development networks, rugby intellect and experience to support Welsh Rugby success is absolute. It is this commitment, together with their role in promoting and celebrating the rich heritage and history within the regional and club game that they seek to protect.

ENDS

 

[beckett50]

It's a complete and utter impasse. Both sides are so entrenched that they have no wriggle room.

 

[Toby Warren]

What a mess. So now we have the French, welsh and English clubs unhappy with their lot.

Such fun.

 

[Taff]

... at this point the WRU remains unable to confirm:

• The existence and structure of any European/Cup Competition for the period 14/15 to 18/19
• The income and distribution from any such competition over the period

Never mind just the WRU, at this point in time can anyone confirm the existence and structure of an European Cup Competition for the next 4 years? :chin:

No union can guarantee the existence and structure of any European/Cup Competition for the next 4 years surely? I'm sure the majority want it, but I don't see how they can guarantee it. :sad:

 

[Account Deleted]

... at this point the WRU remains unable to confirm:

• The existence and structure of any European/Cup Competition for the period 14/15 to 18/19
• The income and distribution from any such competition over the period

Never mind just the WRU, at this point in time can anyone confirm the existence and structure of an European Cup Competition for the next 4 years? :chin:

No union can guarantee the existence and structure of any European/Cup Competition for the next 4 years surely? I'm sure the majority want it, but I don't see how they can guarantee it. :sad:

So why should the clubs commit to 5 more years of Roger's blundering?