Welsh Rugby Union / Regions mess

[L'irlandais]

... at this point in time can anyone confirm the existence and structure of an European Cup Competition for the next 4 years? :chin:

The existence?
Yes, I believe so... layers want to play in a pan-European competition, supporters want to watch one. Sponsor's are far more concerned with that aspect, since that's what generates the money - punters! There's no doubt that there will be A European competition until 2018 and beyond.

The structure? :
What form that competition will take is anyone's guess. However, the Welsh regions selling out on their Pro12 partners + ERC set-up will undoubtedly do them a disservice in the long run, whatever structure comes out of the mix. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."

 

[Account Deleted]

The Italians will not commit to the RABO nor will a sponsor. Why should we stay?

 

[Taff]

So why should the clubs commit to 5 more years of Roger's blundering?

I try not to get too involved on the politics side of things, but from what I can see Roger Lewis has been in charge of the last 7 years, and those 7 years have been pretty good ones for Welsh rugby.

 

[Account Deleted]

For the national team yes. For the rest? Can you explain your reasoning? You can't enter the debate without entering the politics. They're intertwined.

 

[Toby Warren]

The existence?
Yes, I believe so... layers want to play in a pan-European competition, supporters want to watch one. Sponsor's are far more concerned with that aspect, since that's what generates the money - punters! There's no doubt that there will be A European competition until 2018 and beyond.

The structure? :
What form that competition will take is anyone's guess. However, the Welsh regions selling out on their Pro12 partners + ERC set-up will undoubtedly do them a disservice in the long run, whatever structure comes out of the mix. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."

Don't bite the hand that feeds you is a fair point.

But when most the people involved want to bite you maybe the food is off?

What is clear is that most teams involved don't like the current arrangements.

 

[Taff]

.... You can't enter the debate without entering the politics. They're intertwined.

I'll do my best not to get involved in the politics, partly because it all seems very complicated. And partly because this is a very public forum - it's not even in the "Referees Only" section.

For the national team yes. For the rest? Can you explain your reasoning?

My logic is that the Welsh Rugby Unions main job is to make a success of the national side. And on that score we've been punching well above our weight on the international pitches for a few years now. On the regional side, we haven't done very well.

 

[Blackberry]

Help! Can we have a summary of the story so far? I am very much out of the loop on professional rugby events.

As I see it, England and France clubs tried to create a new competition with the idea of getting more of the pot. France then withdrew from the deal, leaving England.....?

Wales clubs (regions?) then tried to join a new deal, hoping again to get a bigger slice of the pot, but the WRFU didn't have an alternative competition to offer them?

Is it correct that much of these manoeuvrings are the clubs driven to get a bigger share of the pot, and where do we stand now with regards to competitions for next year?

I feel like I am trying to joining Lost half way through, so any help (avoiding a) initials and b) assuming knowledge would be gratefully appreciated.

 

[Camquin]

But that does not mean that they will like the new arrangements any better.
However, I am not sure negotiations are over yet.
One rule of negotiation in the souk is that you need to walk out of the bazaar at least once to get the best price.
So I would not bet against a compromise happening.
And if I were a PRL club I would not be booking my trip to Cardiff just yet.

Camquin

 

[L'irlandais]

Hi Blackberry, I'm afraid nobody knows the answer, so apart from laboriously rereading several over-long threads elsewhere on RRF, I'm not sure what to suggest to you.
My own take on your three questions :
1.) French clubs said they promise to support the English clubs' stance. The French clubs just neglected to inform their English counterparts that due to French laws on sport (ie. the Government here only recognise the authority of the Union (FFR), & not the League (LNR) put in place by the Union.) So their promise was worthless (and misleading) to begin with.

2.) Welsh clubs for some (unknown?) reason fail to see that the current situation was advantagous to them. But hey, it has turned out that the initial move by the English clubs, while understandable, was also poorly thought through. So English, French & now Welsh clubs accuse the Unions of being incompétent, only to prove they weren't much better themselves when "push came to shove".

3.) Regarding the future of the "European" competition : "The six unions have stated (as recently as end October, 2013) that they wish to keep the Heineken Cup and they are absolutely united on this point of view." Also Milan's San Siro WILL stage the 2014/15 Heineken Cup final. You can be sure clubs will be found to partake.

 

[Account Deleted]

2.) Welsh clubs for some (unknown?) reason fail to see that the current situation was advantagous to them.

Can you remotely justify that claim?

 

[Account Deleted]

I'll do my best not to get involved in the politics, partly because it all seems very complicated. And partly because this is a very public forum - it's not even in the "Referees Only" section.

The politics are central to this issue. If you don't try to understand and "do" the politics. What are you commenting for? By commenting you are "doing" the politics! I fail to see what the "Referees' Only" bit has to do with it. This is not a matter covered by your referee "contract" You have every right to a view and to express it. If the Union wants to take my license off me of expressing my views then perhaps Roger will have to get fit and take my place.

My logic is that the Welsh Rugby Union's main job is to make a success of the national side. And on that score we've been punching well above our weight on the international pitches for a few years now. On the regional side, we haven't done very well.

Your logic is flawed if that is the case. The national side will not continue to "punch above its weight" if the roots and branches of the tree are not healthy. Welsh rugby is dying. and Roger Lewis is the executioner in chief.

The job of any "union" is the protection of its members. In the case of the WRU that is the clubs.

 

[Account Deleted]

Don't bite the hand that feeds you is a fair point.

But when most the people involved want to bite you maybe the food is off?

What is clear is that most teams involved don't like the current arrangements.

Some sense!

 

[L'irlandais]

... What are you commenting for? ...

Welsh regions are trying to bring about European competition collapse, so they can rise from the ashes. However they get money from the European set-up too (€5.75million). Welsh sides have never won what is the best competition in the Northern hemisphere, that goes a long way toward explaining their contempt to my way of thinking. Since when does the Welsh domestic game have exclusive ownership the game of Rugby? Your bickering and in-fighting is destroying "Our Game" too.

Can you remotely justify that claim?

"There's none so blind", as they say. It's obvious, that this approach (by the regions) jeopardises their current income. Which is not clever. 1000 people (players and coaches) employed by the regions. The WRU increased the regions funding by €5million between 2008 and 2011, to cover a "funding gap" of €2million (2008). The regions' benefactors having to pick up the shortfall. Poor management (according to PriceWaterhouseCoopers report) of the money they got, is whose fault?

While the Unions biggest earner remains the 6 Nations, for non-centrally controlled regions (like your lot) the RaboPro 12 and the European Competitions bring in revenu. Nobody's fault but your own that the regions play in front of empty seats. These funds go into IRFU coffers where I come from.

 

[Account Deleted]

Oh Dear. No actual facts then.

Do a little research on the funding of our system and where the money comes from (which TV companies etc)?


Ask who is the next sponsor of the WSII league and how much are they going to give in sponsorship?

Are the Italians in or out?

Take a look at the population figures of the Welsh Clubs and your provinces to understand a little of why our attendances are so muck lower that yours.

A starter for you. The WRU does not fund the Clubs to that level.

Have you actually read the whole PWC report? Or just the small parts released by the WRU? I suggest you read the whole thing before commenting on it.

 

[Account Deleted]

In real terms The WRU grant has not increase in the 5 years of the PA and it will not rise in real terms in the next 5. Yep signing that really makes sense.

 

[Toby Warren]

Welsh regions are trying to bring about European competition collapse, so they can rise from the ashes. However they get money from the European set-up too (€5.75million). Welsh sides have never won what is the best competition in the Northern hemisphere, that goes a long way toward explaining their contempt to my way of thinking. Since when does the Welsh domestic game have exclusive ownership the game of Rugby? Your bickering and in-fighting is destroying "Our Game" too."There's none so blind", as they say. It's obvious, that this approach (by the regions) jeopardises their current income. Which is not clever. 1000 people (players and coaches) employed by the regions. The WRU increased the regions funding by €5million between 2008 and 2011, to cover a "funding gap" of €2million (2008). The regions' benefactors having to pick up the shortfall. Poor management (according to PriceWaterhouseCoopers report) of the money they got, is whose fault?

While the Unions biggest earner remains the 6 Nations, for non-centrally controlled regions (like your lot) the RaboPro 12 and the European Competitions bring in revenu. Nobody's fault but your own that the regions play in front of empty seats. These funds go into IRFU coffers where I come from.

But it's not just the Welsh is it?

It's now the French, Welsh and English clubs.

 

[irishref]

I'll do my best not to get involved in the politics, partly because it all seems very complicated. And partly because this is a very public forum - it's not even in the "Referees Only" section.


My logic is that the Welsh Rugby Unions main job is to make a success of the national side. And on that score we've been punching well above our weight on the international pitches for a few years now. On the regional side, we haven't done very well.

Your second point is very interesting. Have the WRU never published a set of 4-year goals like the RFU and IRFU have done? The IRFU documents tend to be very detailed in terms of goals that need to be achieved.... things like

xxx amount of league wins by 1 of the provinces
xxx amount of top 4 league finishes by other provinces
xxx amount of Heineken wins
xxx amount of Irish provinces reaching the knock-out stages of Europe
xxx amount of Triple Crowns by Ireland
xxx amount of Six Nations championships by Ireland

They even state referee development in their overall goals, as well as player participation.

So, doe the WRU have such an approach?

 

[Account Deleted]

But it's not just the Welsh is it?

It's now the French, Welsh and English clubs.

Indeed. But please understand why his ire is directed at the Welsh. We are the ones wishing to walk away from his league. Now his provinces will need to find another sugar daddy. The Welsh Clubs are not fairly funded from the Magners/ Rabo / Guess who league.

Our natural alliance is with the English that is were our great days have traditionally been with the likes of Bath Leicester Glaws, Bristol etc. Their the ones that we want to watch. We find the Italians, the Scots and the Irish boring. If it's raining why go and watch a Rabo game stay home and the TV will do. Our game will soon be dead if we stick with the Rabo in its present form. The WRU hamstrings us up with the PA and player release, the extra AI and pointless "cyro" sessions in Poland. Some thing has to change.

- - - Updated - - -

Your second point is very interesting. Have the WRU never published a set of 4-year goals like the RFU and IRFU have done? The IRFU documents tend to be very detailed in terms of goals that need to be achieved.... things like

xxx amount of league wins by 1 of the provinces
xxx amount of top 4 league finishes by other provinces
xxx amount of Heineken wins
xxx amount of Irish provinces reaching the knock-out stages of Europe
xxx amount of Triple Crowns by Ireland
xxx amount of Six Nations championships by Ireland

They even state referee development in their overall goals, as well as player participation.

So, doe the WRU have such an approach?

In short no. At least not one that is made public.

 

[Shelflife]

ATTR im not picking a fight here, you mention that the welsh public are bored with the rabo and thats why they dont go to the games.

You mention Bristol,Bath,Gloucester, Leicester and I can well understand for geographical reasons why there would be a desire to watch those games. However I cant see that games against Newcastle, Northampton, Exeter would be crowd fillers either.


You also assume that the welsh teams will all be accomodated in the Prem league and that they will all stay there, I would suggest that if any of them get relegated then they would simply fold and be lost forever.


I can understand the reluctance to sign the PA as there is alot up in the air atm, but I would fear for a stand alone club that is operating without any help from the union.

I fear that the game in general will suffer in the whole NH as a result of the politics and behind the doors shenannagins being played out by ALL involved in this and the HC debacle.


If I was a potential sponsor I would run a mile from RU atm, its an absolute mess atm.

 

[Account Deleted]

ATTR im not picking a fight here, you mention that the welsh public are bored with the rabo and thats why they dont go to the games.

You mention Bristol,Bath,Gloucester, Leicester and I can well understand for geographical reasons why there would be a desire to watch those games. However I cant see that games against Newcastle, Northampton, Exeter would be crowd fillers either..

YOu are serious about Northamption are you? Agreed not all games will be but there are 6 there that would knock the Italians, the Scots and three if not four of the Irish into the waters as draws Only Leinster would compete as a draw.

You also assume that the welsh teams will all be accomodated in the Prem league and that they will all stay there, I would suggest that if any of them get relegated then they would simply fold and be lost forever.

I make NO such assumption. Please don't put words into my mouth!

The initial plan is for all four. After that? Survival of the fittest and all that. One or more may fold. If so, so bit it. However, we WILL fold under the present agreement.

I can understand the reluctance to sign the PA as there is a lot up in the air atm, but I would fear for a stand alone club that is operating without any help from the union.

If being part of a the Union offered anything you could be right. However, the reality is the only thing that matters to the WRU is "Team Wales" the rest can go to hell.

I fear that the game in general will suffer in the whole NH as a result of the politics and behind the doors shenannagins being played out by ALL involved in this and the HC debacle.


If I was a potential sponsor I would run a mile from RU atm, its an absolute mess atm.

We are all suffering. that is true. Should we agree to a slow death just so others do not suffer?