What can WR do about Red Cards ruining games for the fans?

[Pablo]

NO and NO again. The Try is awarded and then a card is issued. So no points have yet been scored during the binning. Also, logically, if a Penalty is award and a player binned the resultant PK to goal does not remove the bin. It woudl just make no sense. Again, and yes I bang on about the word, it is about context.

Which is exactly the opposite to how a delayed penalty works in ice hockey, the game that inspired Ian’s idea.

 

[SimonSmith]

His carelessness/recklessness caused his opponent to miss the rest of the match, and potential could have ended his career/ability to walk/life. That IMO is why WR has created this hard stance.

I don't agree with your assessment at all.

WR have taken this stance, and like Ian I think it's misguided. The idea that I can stand still, ready to catch a ball and then get red carded because an opposing player jumped into me and fell badly is ridiculous

 

[didds]

I don't agree with your assessment at all.

WR have taken this stance, and like Ian I think it's misguided. The idea that I can stand still, ready to catch a ball and then get red carded because an opposing player jumped into me and fell badly is ridiculous

Indeed. And as Ive said before it basically means if red 10 kicks the ball such that it will land exactly where Blue 15 is already standing, not having to move, blue 15 in effect has to actually run AWAY from where the ball will land and he already is to avoid nexactly the possibility that Simon describes. How bloody stupid is that?

didds

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Which is exactly the opposite to how a delayed penalty works in ice hockey, the game that inspired Ian’s idea.

Delayed penalty is a little like "advantage".It is signalled but not called untill the offending side gets the puck. However, the penalty bin system works as below.

Penalty Type	Minor	Double Minor	Major	Misconduct	Game misconduct	Match
Team is short-handed for	2 min	4 min	5 min	None	None	5 min
Offender leaves ice for	2 min	4 min	5 min	10 min	Rest of game	Rest of game
If opponent scores goal	Ends	Reduces to multiple of 2 min	Remains	Remains	Remains	Remains
Statistical Penalty Min NHL	2	4	5	10	10	10
Statistical Penalty Min IIHF	2	4	5	10	20	25

 

[crossref]

I don't agree with your assessment at all.

WR have taken this stance, and like Ian I think it's misguided. The idea that I can stand still, ready to catch a ball and then get red carded because an opposing player jumped into me and fell badly is ridiculous

It is possible he could jump into you, knock you unconscious, and land badly , and you could wake up to a red card

 

[thepercy]

Indeed. And as Ive said before it basically means if red 10 kicks the ball such that it will land exactly where Blue 15 is already standing, not having to move, blue 15 in effect has to actually run AWAY from where the ball will land and he already is to avoid nexactly the possibility that Simon describes. How bloody stupid is that?

didds

That's not what happened here.

I agree, that the standard should be changed to include sanction for those who jump recklessly and cause harm to their opponents or even themselves.

Why do you think they have taken this rigid stance on contests in the air?

 

[TigerCraig]

Should sack WR and put the review panel in charge

 

[TigerCraig]

Why do you think they have taken this rigid stance on contests in the air?

To make the game seem safe for little white boys and their soft mummys - like most of the other changes

 

[winchesterref]

Its so clearly the try AFTERthe guy has gone off. I really can;t see any complication in this concept at all.

didds

What about the team that's 12 points up and gives up a player on a YC knowing only 7-10 points can be scored, and they'll still be ahead when their man comes back?

The amount of times the score is more than 7-10 points is not all that frequent, but the chance it will be acts as a deterrent.

 

[didds]

That's not what happened here.

???

I never said it was. I was following up Simon's point about players standing still waiting for the ball to land being held responsible for somebody else throwing themselves into that person. The logical extension of which is the scenario I painted.

It was never anything but an extreme hypothetical scenario, that would however be easily commonplace.

didds

 

[winchesterref]

not only are they saying it is a mitigating fcator, they are also implying that if ref & TMO had had the luxury of seeing that too, they would have reached the same conclusion.

It only really seems to me that in the air challenges are the seriously contentious RCs around. High shots and shoulders tend to be a bit more clear cut, no?

If so, maybe WR could say something like "if there is a suggestion that obstruction or shepherding may have caused the offender to mistime the challenge, this will result in a one step downgrading of the initial on-field decision to minimum penalty only (e.g. RC will become a YC, YC a penalty), and the incident will be placed on report for the citing commissioner". I don't know, it's only an off the top of my head wording, but might prevent inappropriate RCs.

Alternatively bin the obstructors, bin the kick off and kick chase offsides, bin the scrum halves that dummy from the base of the ruck, the sealer off-ers, just bin them all and play to the sodding laws.

 

[didds]

It only really seems to me that in the air challenges are the seriously contentious RCs around. High shots and shoulders tend to be a bit more clear cut, no?

Watch from 38 seconds - really??

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

His carelessness/recklessness caused his opponent to miss the rest of the match, and potential could have ended his career/ability to walk/life. That IMO is why WR has created this hard stance.

It is still not thuggery...

thuggery

noun

mass noun

Violent behaviour, especially of a criminal nature.

 

[winchesterref]

Watch from 38 seconds - really??

didds

Of course, there's always plenty of examples! I've aired my view on that particular tackle elsewhere, and also asked a question in that thread on here which could still do with an answer... :shrug:

Anyway, I said "tend", not always

 

[Pablo]

Delayed penalty is a little like "advantage".It is signalled but not called untill the offending side gets the puck. However, the penalty bin system works as below.

Penalty Type	Minor	Double Minor	Major	Misconduct	Game misconduct	Match
Team is short-handed for	2 min	4 min	5 min	None	None	5 min
Offender leaves ice for	2 min	4 min	5 min	10 min	Rest of game	Rest of game
If opponent scores goal	Ends	Reduces to multiple of 2 min	Remains	Remains	Remains	Remains
Statistical Penalty Min NHL	2	4	5	10	10	10
Statistical Penalty Min IIHF	2	4	5	10	20	25

Thanks, as a qualified hockey ref I really needed that explaining to me.

The point is: a YC from a penalty try is for an act of foul play in the build up to scoring. A delayed penalty is for an act of foul play in the build up to scoring. Hockey wipes the foul if the goal is scored and enforces it if not; you’re proposing that rugby should both award the score AND enforce the foul. Logically inconsistent.

 

[didds]

Only inconsistent if you are rtrying to implement a 100% similar penalty/sanction.

Ian's suggestion isn't that - its a suggestion based loosely on the concept. At the moment the accepted historical sanction is that the player never returns and the team also lose out.

didds

 

[VM75]

I disagree. IMO, the increase is down to only one thing... the lowering of the standard of seriousness required for a the issuance of a RC

Before the introduction of cards, sending offs were very, very rare, and any player who was sent off almost certainly had committed an act of egregious violence against an opponent; a kick in the head, punch in the face. Now you can get a RC for a mistimed tackle

As you've often said, the old days are gone. The game was very very different in those days, and much was overlooked [often wrongly IMO] and personally i'd rather take a punch on the chin than be upended in the air and be paralysed for life or suffering from an absence of cognitive functionality because i've been smashed across the face 20 times [masquerading as a mistimed tackle attempt!] in my last 25 ball carry's !

ps..Ben Kay isn't the oracle on this subject.

 

[didds]

shouldn;t the title of this thread be

What can the players do about Red Cards ruining games for the fans?

didds

 

[VM75]

If you've been keeping up you will be aware that have objected right from the outset at the stupidity of the high catch Laws, right back to the first incident of note with Dan Biggar v Finn Russell in Wales v Scotland 2015 where Russell was YC and copped a two week suspension for standing his ground while Dan Biggar who recklessly jumped at full speed from about 5m away and put everyone in danger got off scot free. I could not understand at the time how a player in motion (and not in possession) could wilfully charge into his opponent who was almost stationary (and also not possession) and it was somehow the opponent's fault, and I still can't. If the player can't do this to his opponent on the ground, why on earth should he be granted the right to do so merely because he recklessly jumps in a dangerous fashion at his opponent?

The better option would be to ban jumping for a kicked ball altogether, or only allow the non-kicking side to jump for a kicked ball.

There's no need to be condescending, I have actually been keeping up, I agreed with the Finn Russell decision then & still believe that players need to be responsible for their actions AND timings. It's too easy for everyone to excuse their dangerous play with a mere 'intention denial'

The reason the game needed FRussell judgements because the pro's were (supposedly accidentally) upturning players who'd demonstrated better jump and/or arrival timings, so the pro's are simply reaping what they've sown.

I suspect we might not agree on this subject, I hope WR keep my view.

 

[DocY]

shouldn;t the title of this thread be

What can the players do about Red Cards ruining games for the fans?

didds

Well that's the nub of it. Players don't have enough control over red cards any more.

They used to be given for things that the carded player alone could control, now they don't and in lots of cases (i.e. Benjamin Fall) their opponent's actions have a far greater baring than their own.