What happens when the opposition make noises before a tap penalty is taken

[Dan Cottrell]

Here is a query I have just received...is there a particular law that prevents this?


Good morning Dan,

I was told by an opposing coach at the weekend that his defensive line could chant and wave their arms having retired 7 metres (Under 11s) after conceeding a penalty, if the penalty was being run, opposed to a kick on goal. Can you let me know if this is being coached at junior level?

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Dixie]

Hi Dan

I think you already know what response you'll get from us. It's an act contrary to good sportsmanship, and needs to be stamped out. In particular, the coach needs to get his head straight.

There's no big issue with safety or anything else while the players are separated by a distance of 7m. But if you've got a coach teaching this sort of disrespectful sledging, it will soon appear at lineouts, while setting up scrums and other moments in the game when the players are in combat mode and in close proximity. There's no place for it in our game - tell the coach to go and teach Wendyball if his idea of the way to win is to put off the opposition rather than develop attacking skills in his team.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

On a similar vein I've had issues with my own clubs junior section being "coached" to all run up and congratulate any try scorer.
Clear flashpoint in testosterone fuelled youth matches.
Coaches couldn't see anything wrong with what they perceived as team building/bonding.
In one particularly close game at U16 I told the coach I would penalise the team from the restart if they repeated it.

 

[Dan_A]

Here is a query I have just received...is there a particular law that prevents this?


Good morning Dan,

I was told by an opposing coach at the weekend that his defensive line could chant and wave their arms having retired 7 metres (Under 11s) after conceeding a penalty, if the penalty was being run, opposed to a kick on goal. Can you let me know if this is being coached at junior level?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Can we be more specific here? I've seen lots of teams in these age groups line-up defensively chanting "Hold, hold, hold" and waving their hands in unison in a kind of chopping motion. Not really sure how it helps them but not really against the spirit of rugby surely?

 

[crossref]

Can we be more specific here? I've seen lots of teams in these age groups line-up defensively chanting "Hold, hold, hold" and waving their hands in unison in a kind of chopping motion. Not really sure how it helps them but not really against the spirit of rugby surely?

this is to get them all focussed and paying attention (11 year old minds drift off!)

I let them do that.
If the chanting is directed at the oppo to wind them up or distract them (you can tell the difference) I put a stop to it

 

[didds]

seems fair enough CR, and I'd agree.

There is an element I would suggest of reasonable identification and calling in a defensive situation ("my man" "I have the 10" etc), if only to ensure that everyone has ID'd a DIFFERENT opponent, and to focus minds. I would 100% agree that any sledging or negative comments aimed at the opposition is worthy of acts contrary etc.

Q: If its already a PK, is the punishment a 10m march? FK could be upgraded to a PK presumably.

didds

 

[Browner]

On a similar vein I've had issues with my own clubs junior section being "coached" to all run up and congratulate any try scorer.
Clear flashpoint in testosterone fuelled youth matches.
Coaches couldn't see anything wrong with what they perceived as team building/bonding.
In one particularly close game at U16 I told the coach I would penalise the team from the restart if they repeated it.

Showbiz has opened the bottle for that genie to escape

The understated celebration is almost yesteryear.

My personal line in the sand is ANY "goading" .....ie...verbal /agression/ posturing /or physical.... directed towards opponents or their coaches/spectators.

 

[crossref]

Showbiz has opened the bottle for that genie to escape

The understated celebration is almost yesteryear.

My personal line in the sand is ANY "goading" .....ie...verbal /agression/ posturing /or physical.... directed towards opponents or their coaches/spectators.

at U11: no goading, no gloating.

 

[RobLev]

....There's no place for it in our game - tell the coach to go and teach Wendyball soccer if his idea of the way to win is to put off the opposition rather than develop attacking skills in his team.

FTFY.

 

[Account Deleted]

at U11: no goading, no gloating.

Agreed that there should be none at U11. I do wonder why we allow it further up the chain.

 

[Ian_Cook]

On a similar vein I've had issues with my own clubs junior section being "coached" to all run up and congratulate any try scorer.

And I support that coach's approach and methods. At our club, we teach our Juniors to celebrate achievements as well and that includes celebrating try scoring with pats on the back and applause etc..I don't have a problem with celebrating excellence. We teach it in our Pony Club as well. When a rider has a great ride on the Cross Country, our other team riders and strappers are there near the finish line and its hugs and high fives all round.

Clear flashpoint in testosterone fuelled youth matches.

Bollocks! There is nothing wrong with celebration among enthusiastic youths, so long as they don't do any direct "in-your-face" rubbish such as goading or sledging. We teach our kids that showing emotion, and being happy and proud of their achievements is OK.

What you appear to want to do is turn them into one-dimensional robots?

Coaches couldn't see anything wrong with what they perceived as team building/bonding.

Neither can I

In one particularly close game at U16 I told the coach I would penalise the team from the restart if they repeated it.

Law reference for this - and don't give me 10.4 (m) because it does not apply to kids celebrating among themselves

This is just another example of the politically correct BS that seems to have infected your part of the world; one where individuals who stand out from the crowd are beaten down, where excellence is frowned upon, where we don't keep score for kids games, and where there are no winners and losers.

I loathe and despise this attitude to the Game.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

. At our club, we teach our Juniors to celebrate achievements

I agree with quite a lot of what you say but we were taught to celebrate winning. Don't run around patting each other on the back just because you scored a try. You've won nowt. Celebrate when you've won the game!

 

[Account Deleted]

And I support that coach's approach and methods. At our club, we teach our Juniors to celebrate achievements as well and that includes celebrating try scoring with pats on the back and applause etc..I don't have a problem with celebrating excellence. We teach it in our Pony Club as well. When a rider has a great ride on the Cross Country, our other team riders and strappers are there near the finish line and its hugs and high fives all round.



Bollocks! There is nothing wrong with celebration among enthusiastic youths, so long as they don't do any direct "in-your-face" rubbish such as goading or sledging. We teach our kids that showing emotion, and being happy and proud of their achievements is OK.

What you appear to want to do is turn them into one-dimensional robots?



Neither can I



Law reference for this - and don't give me 10.4 (m) because it does not apply to kids celebrating among themselves

This is just another example of the politically correct BS that seems to have infected your part of the world; one where individuals who stand out from the crowd are beaten down, where excellence is frowned upon, where we don't keep score for kids games, and where there are no winners and losers.

I loathe and despise this attitude to the Game.

Agree that celebrating is good. GOADING and GLOATING are not celebrating. The difference is important. That's not PC tosh at all it is the bedrock upon which rugby is founded.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Agree that celebrating is good. GOADING and GLOATING are not celebrating. The difference is important.

Didn't I say that

"...so long as they don't do any direct "in-your-face" rubbish such as goading or sledging."

That's not PC tosh at all it is the bedrock upon which rugby is founded.

I agree, but that is not what I'm directing my ire at. ctrainor said he would penalise a team at the restart if they celebrate a try, and he implied that even if there is no goading, gloating or sledging directed at the opponents it would not make any difference. No celebrating at all was his stance.

That is an utterly deplorable attitude to take. He expects the kids to stifle their joy and not show their emotions. Sorry, that is a complete anathema to me. IMO, his attitude is totally unacceptable from a referee in any sport at any level.

I agree with quite a lot of what you say but we were taught to celebrate winning. Don't run around patting each other on the back just because you scored a try.

Well, we do.

We celebrate all aspects of achievement, even throughout the game.... a turnover, a brilliant piece of play etc gets a pat on the back and a well done from other team members. This is part of what we call "encouragement".

If you want to have your kids play like stoic automatons, showing no emotion or enthusiasm for their team and team-mates , I guess that is your prerogative!

 

[Rushforth]

I agree, but that is not what I'm directing my ire at. ctrainor said he would penalise a team at the restart if they celebrate a try, and he implied that even if there is no goading, gloating or sledging directed at the opponents it would not make any difference. No celebrating at all was his stance.

I can't speak for his stance, but I went back and read it all the same.

I can't speak for you either, Ian, but you do have a tendency to "judge".

 

[The Fat]

We encourage our kids to always give possitive feedback to their team mates. Applaud positive play and congratulate scoring a try, a goal, a good tackle or poach, a try saving tackle etc. We try to get the kids to finish any comment to their team mates with a positive eg; if a player spills an easy catch that leads to an oppo try, get the kids to say stuff like, "bad luck Billy it happens, chin up mate, let's get back into it...."
I don't think it is necessary to get the whole team to race from all over the field to personally congratulate a try scorer. The left winger can call out to congratulate the right winger as they are jogging back while the kicker does his thing.
As a referee, I watch for sledging, goading/gloating by the try scoring team directed at the defenders and have a quick word whilst walking back to give the kicker his line. If it is right in the face stuff, I will chat to the scoring team's captain before the restart.

 

[Browner]

Ciaran, perhaps you could explain what is was about the celebration that didn't want to see.....

ie..was it
the position on the pitch, the proximity to opposition, the full team involvement, the time it takes ......or?????

Ian is somewhat scathing in his condemnation of such an approach, but something must be driving your warning to your u16's ....what is it?

 

[The Fat]

On a similar vein I've had issues with my own clubs junior section being "coached" to all run up and congratulate any try scorer.
Clear flashpoint in testosterone fuelled youth matches.
Coaches couldn't see anything wrong with what they perceived as team building/bonding.
In one particularly close game at U16 I told the coach I would penalise the team from the restart if they repeated it.

I assume they hadn't been so much celebrating the try as sledging the opposition to get you to this point?
If they were keeping it all good natured between themselves and not yelling at opposition, you would get yourself a bit of an instant reputation for being that heavy handed.
More info on the case in point required.

 

[SimonSmith]

I can't speak for his stance, but I went back and read it all the same.

I can't speak for you either, Ian, but you do have a tendency to "judge".

"Kettle....kettle...hello, this is pot."

 

[Account Deleted]

Didn't I say that

Indeed. I'm merely trying to underline the difference between the two. I have no problem with celebrations.