What is a teammate?

[Novice-Ref]

I was pulled up the other week by an assessor who told me that for a penalty, I had allowed a substitute to come on as 'placer' for a kick and it must be someone on the field of play. Having read the law book it says a 'teammate' may act as placer.

Surely 'teammate' both morally and by definition should include substitutes. Afterall it will be the substitute who has the kicking tee

Views?

 

[Drift]

Nope, has to be a person actually playing the game at that moment in time.

 

[Andrew1974]

If that is all he had to pick you up on then sounds liek you had a good game.

Personally I could not get too excited either way.

Drift - you seem pretty sure - do you have anything in the laws to back up your assertion?

 

[Browner]

Law definitions[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Team-mate. Another player of the same team

Personally, I'm not bothered if a replacement does the job.
I'm surprised the assessor was !

[/FONT]

 

[Taff]

If that is all he had to pick you up on then sounds liek you had a good game.

Just what I was thinking.

I've seen it happen in an international when I think a water carrier held the ball in a game where Wayne Barnes was in charge. As they were trotting back to the HWL he could clearly be heard to say "Next time make sure it's a team mate" or words to that effect. He didn't make an issue of it the first time ... and lets be blunt it's unlikely to happen a second time.

 

[Drift]

Drift - you seem pretty sure - do you have anything in the laws to back up your assertion?

Not that I remember, however it's the way I was told when I was starting out and I have kept up that interpretation 6 years later. I guess one could argue this is the law to back me up:
[LAWS]6.A.4 (a), which states in part that the referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during the match[/LAWS]

 

[OB..]

I commented on this on the one occasion it happened, pointing out that the team actually had 16 players on the pitch at that time.

Why assume it was the only comment? For me it was part of a discussion covering several points.

 

[ckuxmann]

I never got this, cause if I bring on a tee, and an American style holding thing, it's the same as someone holding it.

 

[crossref]

i have never seen one of those before!
would it be legal in rugby?

 

[OB..]

i have never seen one of those before!
would it be legal in rugby?

I would suggest not. If the kick fails and play continues, it could do some damage if it remained on the pitch.

 

[ckuxmann]

how's school going cody?

Just brilliant I think that I should have learnt grammar and spelling earlier cause I don't think they teach that in Uni...

- - - Updated - - -

I would suggest not. If the kick fails and play continues, it could do some damage if it remained on the pitch.

That's what the tee carrier does after the ball is kicked is pick it up and run it off though.

 

[RobLev]

Not that I remember, however it's the way I was told when I was starting out and I have kept up that interpretation 6 years later. I guess one could argue this is the law to back me up:
[LAWS]6.A.4 (a), which states in part that the referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during the match[/LAWS]

Or, alternatively and echoing OB's comment, Law 3.

The definition of team is:

A Team. A team consists of fifteen players who start the match plus any authorised replacements and/or substitutes.

and law 3.1 states that:

Maximum: each team must have no more than fifteen players on the playing area during play.

Once play recommences with the kick being taken, the kicking team has 16 players on the playing area.

 

[Camquin]

I suppose we allow a tee carrier to be on the pitch as a non-player - so they are not counted in the 15.
If the tee carrier is a non-player they are not a team mate so cannot place.

If a sub comes on to place then that is a 16th player - or someone has to go off.

In another thread we have established you cannot come on as an interchange and immediately kick - can you come on and immediately place?

Obviously this applies more to a penalty - where the ball is still live if it misses - than to a conversion - where the ball is immediately dead whatever the result.

Camquin

 

[Dixie]

For me, substitutes are not allowed to play the game. This is why we YC them if they deliberately prevent a QTI from taking place.

[LAWS](c) If a ... substitute joins the match without the referee’s permission, and the referee believes the player did so to help that player’s team ..., the referee penalises the player for misconduct.
Sanction: A penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart.[/LAWS]

Scenario: penalty kick at goal from the 10m line on a windy day. Taking the kick at goal is part of the play in the match; time is on. The act of "placing" the ball (i.e. fingertip on point until a fraction of a second before the kick) is as much a part of the play as is the kick. If that function is necessary and is performed by a player, then with one player on each touchline in case of a miss and subsequent kick for touch, and with one player midfield in case of a miss and long punt downfield, then the other eight players can chase up the kick.

If the substitute is allowed to place the ball, then there are nine players chasing the kick - an advantage over a mere eight. The substitute has clcearly taken part in the game; he did so to help his team (the chances of scoring are much higher if the ball is placed); the referee must not collude in this disadvantaging of the non-kicking side, so we hope he has not given permission for this to take place. Given all that, the referee must penalise the substitute for misconduct.

Much better all round, though, to insist upon the substitute staying well clear.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I never got this, cause if I bring on a tee, and an American style holding thing, it's the same as someone holding it. View attachment 2697

Whit a loada auld jobbies - ahm 'oot!

View attachment 2698

 

[crossref]

if it's PK then clearly it must be one of the other 14, and using anyone else is material as it frees up all the other 14 to participate in the game as soon as the kick is taken. So don't allow it.

for a conversion the Law is the same, but it's not at all material, so rather than stopping and fetching a team mate, in the wind and everything, perhaps let's keep the game moving, let him take the kick and tell him 'not next time'

 

[Andrew1974]

if it's PK then clearly it must be one of the other 14, and using anyone else is material as it frees up all the other 14 to participate in the game as soon as the kick is taken. So don't allow it.

If we assume that the placer has a training top or similar so the opposition are not going to think that he is active in play then I do not follow this logic. If the kicker uses a tee then pretty much anyone can bring the tee on, wait till the kick is taken then remove the tee. In this case there is the kicker plus 14 teammates ready to take an active part in the game as soon as the ball is live.

The holder is just a tee replacement (normally - in the games I ref at least - due to wind or because someone forgot to pack the tee), and if someone who is not in the fifteen holds it we still have a kicker plus 14 teammates ready to take part.

These two scenarios are not, to my mind, materially different.

I appreciate what the law says (re teammate), but the definition is not that clear (or we would not be discussing it) and I think it is one of those things that is unlikely to have any material impact on the game, ever.

OK...so who is now going to prove me wrong by highlighting an incident where someone other than one of the 15 on the pitch acted as holder and went on to have a material imapct?

Andrew

 

[OB..]

A sub as placer is releasing one of the other 14 players from the job and thus taking an active part in the game. A sub waiting to remove the tee after the kick is not.

 

[chbg]

i have never seen one of those before!
would it be legal in rugby?

Clarification 1 2013

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

Ruling 1-2013

Union IRFU

Law Reference 9


Date 13 September 2013

Request

The Irish Rugby Football Union has requested clarification that apart from a kicking tee no other item or implement may be used.

Law 9.B.1 (d) states:

(d) The kicker may place the ball directly on the ground or on sand, sawdust or a kicking tee approved by the Union.

There have been instances where the kicker has used another marker to indicate where he wishes to place his non kicking foot; or to sight/line up the ball with the posts.

It is our view that these additional assists falls outside Law.

Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

The Law permits the use of a kicking tee or sand to elevate the ball so that it can be kicked. No other equipment, sand or other implement may be used to assist the kicker.

 

[Phil E]

Some might say the team only consists of the 8 forwards? :sarc:

[LAWS]Clarification 6 2009

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Ruling6-2009
UnionARU
Law Reference20
Date10 August 2009
This Clarification was incorporated into Law in 2009
Request
1. The U19 Law Variation refers to a team having fewer than eight players in its scrum when “…the team cannot field a complete team, or a player sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because of injury.” Does this Law Variation also apply if a player is cautioned and temporarily suspended (yellow card)?

2. The U19 law Variation refers to both teams using reduced numbers of players in the scrum formation if “…a team is incomplete…” because it is without one, two or three players. No distinction is made between forward players and back players. If a No. 15 is sent off early in a match, must both teams play with seven players in the scrum, even though both teams still have eight players suitably trained and capable of playing in the scrum?

3. If a team cannot field a complete team because it is short one or more forward player, but that team is able to provide form the available players suitably trained players to contest scrums, may the game proceed/continue with eight player scrums per team?
Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
The complete team is a reference to having eight players who can play in the scrum. If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and cannot be replaced due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.

If any player in the other than a forward has to leave the field for any reason and cannot be replaced there will be no reduction in the players playing in the scrum.
[/LAWS]