What the f*** is happening with Lancashire's Leagues

[WombleRef]

A very sad situation. Geography and travel times and costs are understandable issues, but an agenda driven by a few suits in my opinion. They didn't want to travel to Cumbria but were happy to go to the Isle of Man!

I think the problem is that the Isle of Man once a season - fully funded by the RFU is reasonable - and creates a mini-tour. Cumbria 5-6 times a season becomes a real challenge.

What needs to happen is the 2nd and 3rd Teams playing in the NW Merit Leagues need to join the RFU leagues and do what's happened in Eastern Counties. It's stabilized the problem and allowed some teams to finally push towards growth.

In effect - the current Premiership and Championship enter at Level 8/9, with Division 1 and Division 2 entering at Level 10/11 - with promotion between these leagues. No one can go higher than Level 8 unless you are a 1st XV.

 

[colesy]

In effect - the current Premiership and Championship enter at Level 8/9, with Division 1 and Division 2 entering at Level 10/11 - with promotion between these leagues. No one can go higher than Level 8 unless you are a 1st XV.

Wouldn’t work and would lead to ridiculous mismatches. For refereeing purposes, the Premiership and Championship are graded at levels 6 and 7 and Divisions 1 and 2 at levels 8 and 9 respectively, for good reasons.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I wonder how the MAD Refs appointments secretary is going to view these leagues when it comes to putting refs into games that matter?

 

[colesy]

I wonder how the MAD Refs appointments secretary is going to view these leagues when it comes to putting refs into games that matter?

I would guess that the new Lancashire leagues will be graded somewhere between 7 and 9 to correspond with the levels of the clubs who are taking part. Over time, I suspect those levels might drop as the more talented players in the breakaway clubs leave to go to other clubs who have ambitions to play at a higher level and have remained in the RFU structure. Unless of course the RFU agrees that the breakaway leagues should feed into the RFU leagues at some time in the future, but I don’t think that’s on the cards right now.

 

[crossref]

It's not completely breakaway is it ? It seems to be organised as Lancashire RFU sponsored Merit Table .

We have Middlesex Merit Tables that are considered L9 and so overlap with local RFU leagues that go down to 11 .. so some precedent there .

 

[colesy]

It's not completely breakaway is it ? It seems to be organised as Lancashire RFU sponsored Merit Table .

We have Middlesex Merit Tables that are considered L9 and so overlap with local RFU leagues that go down to 11 .. so some precedent there .

We have a merit table structure in the North West that goes from level 6 down to level 12 but it’s mainly second and third teams. This is a whole new ball game and involves the first teams from 24 clubs. Are the Middlesex merit tables predominantly first teams?

 

[crossref]

Middx Merit have Div 1 to Div 6 , there 1st 2nd 3rd teams across the spectrum

Here is the list
http://middlesexrugby.com/competitions/mmt/

There is no promotion out of Div 1
Teams who want to leave could apply to join London or Herts Middx (RFU leagues ), or the Zoo Shield (strong second teams )

 

[WombleRef]

Just done some digging on our website: http://www.madrefs.co.uk/downloads/866 MDRURS Appointments Policy (September 2013).pdf

I imagine they'll be treated as they were before...

 

[Camquin]

Oddly only Aldwinians, Oldham, Trafford MV and Burnley (relegated) were in North Lancs / Cumbria
So the others - including Burnley were not going to go to Cumbria.

NLC is only slightly larger than average for level 7 and SLC slightly too small - but that reflects the population.
Both are smaller than say Yorkshire.

The average comes out as 3,143 sq miles.
And they are odd shapes - with clubs not arranged smoothly and poor road links.

 

[WombleRef]

This continues to be rumbling on. It sounds like some form of peace offering has been made towards the club and clubs are 'rumbling' at present.

Could we see the league adopted into the structure? Seems to me like the logical thing to do.

 

[Camquin]

I am not quite sure what is happening.
Northern division published a proposed new structure.
This had a 14 team NLC and SLC 1 and 8-team Cumbrian leage and SLC 2 & 3

It had 4 of the clubs that had previously been linked with the breakaway merit leagues and Oswestry - who are also listed in the Midlands division where they belong.

The breakaway were open to entries until today.
There was a note that if any more teams left, SLC 2 and 3 would be combined.

The other oddity was Altringham Kersal were among the sides level transferred to NLC - but apparently they are appealing.

There were reports that this caused Chesire to propose an alternative structure.

There has been a lot of vitriol - and little light - on the rolling maul thread on the topic.

Lancashire leagues have published a structured season - see https://twitter.com/LancsRULeagues
They have left 5 weeks for a cup and say every side will get two games - so presumably will run a plate.
However, while that works with 32 teams, it does not work with 24 or 20. As in the first round you have 8 or 4 games and do not have enough losers to start the plate. After the second week 16 or 12 losers and still need 4 weeks to complete the plate.

They appear to be offering sides the opportunity to take one week a season off .
I am not sure how that will work - what happens to the other side.
In the worst case, a side could have half their games cancelled.

I am not sure who is organising fixtures for these clubs other sides - are they still entered in the NW Merit leagues.
If so will they still travel to Cumbria / Cheshire / Man

I am intrigued as to how it will pan out.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

There is a motion in wednesdays northwest intermediate leagues AGM to specifically exclude clubs from Cumbria, I guess Cheshire and greater Manchester and other peripherals are ok

9. Proposed by Aldwinians, Seconded by Wigan

a. Cumbria Teams should play in Cumbria Shield Leagues.

Unbelievable that a club who were excluded from the leagues las season as they couldn't field a second team can second a motion that would deny 5 clubs who fully participated last season the opportunity to play rugby.
Disgraceful

 

[Camquin]

While not commentating on the reasons for the proposal.

If those 5 sides played in the Cumbria structure, with the 7 sides from NLC, 8 from the proposed Cumbria 1 and 10 from Cumbrian Shield, would give 10 team leagues at level 7,8 and 9.

Something like:

Cumbria Premier (level 7)
Aspatria
Wigton
Keswick
St Benedicts
Whitehaven
Upper Eden
Hawcoat Pk
Kendal 2
Kirkby Lonsdale 2nd XV
Penrith A

Cumbria 1 (Level 8)

Cockermouth
Furness
Silloth
Workington
Carlisle Crusaders
Windermere
Egremont
Millom
Upper Eden A
Hawcoat Pk A

Cumbria Shield (Level 9)

Wigton 2
Keswick 2
Moresby
Aspatria 2
Creighton
Workington 2
Cockermouth 2
Whitehaven 2
Millom 2
St Benedicts 2
Kirkby Lonsdale 3rd XV

I am sure Mr Trainor will point out that introduces some horrible mismatches.

 

[WombleRef]

While not commentating on the reasons for the proposal.

If those 5 sides played in the Cumbria structure, with the 7 sides from NLC, 8 from the proposed Cumbria 1 and 10 from Cumbrian Shield, would give 10 team leagues at level 7,8 and 9.

Something like:

Cumbria Premier (level 7)
Aspatria
Wigton
Keswick
St Benedicts
Whitehaven
Upper Eden
Hawcoat Pk
Kendal 2
Kirkby Lonsdale 2nd XV
Penrith A

Cumbria 1 (Level 8)

Cockermouth
Furness
Silloth
Workington
Carlisle Crusaders
Windermere
Egremont
Millom
Upper Eden A
Hawcoat Pk A

Cumbria Shield (Level 9)

Wigton 2
Keswick 2
Moresby
Aspatria 2
Creighton
Workington 2
Cockermouth 2
Whitehaven 2
Millom 2
St Benedicts 2
Kirkby Lonsdale 3rd XV

I am sure Mr Trainor will point out that introduces some horrible mismatches.

I imagine KL 3rds would heavily struggle in that Level 9 league - I'd also argue that they seem happy and settled in Division 5 North of the Merit Leagues and perhaps don't need to be removed. Especially having played for them!

But the logic and merit works - it just seems to be a giant mess!

 

[WombleRef]

So reading more into this - they have 2 leagues of 10 set-up (think a few of the smaller clubs realised they were getting shafted), meanwhile the lower league setup of the RFU north leagues looks uh messy.

Think it's time to put in 2nd teams from Level 9 below and 3rd Teams from Levels below into the RFU league structure for the sake of this not getting ridiculous, and teams from higher up split off into a true reserve league.

http://www.rfunorth.com/news/North West Restructure May 2018.pdf

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Actually there would not be too many mismatches in that structure if every team had people fit and available. The reality is that will not happen, and teams from Cumbria have always looked forward to playing different clubs.
In my day we played Ryton in the north east and crew and Nantwich in Cheshire regularly.
For me becoming insular is not good for the game.
Can't see the proposed structure working for the Isle of Man teams either.
I understand why some teams have done it, just personally very disappointed.
The unique challenges of travel in this region need to be better funded by the Rfu or the game will die.

 

[Camquin]

Apparently the vote at the Nowirul AGM was unanimous in favour of keeping Cumbrian clubs.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Yes camquin and my source tells me that it wasn't quite unanimous, the proposing and seconding clubs abstained!

 

[Camquin]

I think my informant does not know the difference between unanimous and nem con - what do they teach them in schools these days.
The Lancashire RFU twitter has links to the Lancashire League fixtures and the latest RFu North league structure - with SLC2 and 3 merged.

 

[WombleRef]

I understand Cheshire are now pushing proposals through to have the remaining Lancashire clubs and the Cheshire clubs in one league structure down to Level 9, with Cumbria to go out on their own.

Is it just me or is the solution not going to be to just let each county play in their own counties league, with all three playing in a cup perhaps to allow for some fun journeys?