Wheeled Scrum at U18 - 45 degree - reset - who gets the ball?

[Rich]

I am troubled and need clarification;

My original understanding of U18 (not U19) is that once the scrum has wheeled (unintentionally) beyond 45 degrees then the scrum is reset, with the original "throwing in" team putting the ball in again.

1) I have just read some RFU U19 variations (appendix 2) and they state:
If scrums are reset for wheeling beyond 45 degrees the throw-in is to the side in possession at the time it is wheeled beyond 45 degrees.

So this tells me that it might not be the original throwing-in team that gets the second put in.

2) The second clarification is that this says U18 (there is no "turnover" law at U18) so can I assume from this that at U19, although this appendix is written to cover U19s too, the Laws of turn over do apply to that age group (U19) - in other words at U19 its a wheel beyond 90 degrees the team NOT in possession at the time of stoppage throws in.

any thoughts much appreciated!!

 

[crossref]

gosh what a mess the RFU seem to have made to appendix 2.
http://www.rfu.com/~/media/files/thegame/regulations/rfu_regulation_15_appendix_2_2013


1 - the way it's written, the variations to scrum and lineout appear in the U13/U14 section, apply to U15, but no mention is made of them applying to U16-U18 - although they do, surely.

2- the RFU regulations have changed this season to contradict the IRB

IRB
[LAWS](a) No wheeling. A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum. Sanction: Penalty kick

If a wheel reaches 45 degrees, the referee must stop play. If the wheel is unintentional, the referee orders another scrum at the place where the scrum is stopped. The same team throws in the ball[/LAWS]

RFU
[LAWS]5.5.9 There is no ‘turnover’ law at U18. If scrums are reset for wheeling beyond 45
degrees the throw-in is to the side in possession at the time it is wheeled beyond
45 degrees.[/LAWS]

Surely that's a cock up. I can't imagine the RFU meant to issue regualtions different from the IRB, and didn't tell anyone

 

[Phil E]

IRB Laws U19 variations

20.11 Scrum wheeled
(a)No wheeling. A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick
If a wheel reaches 45 degrees, the referee must stop play. If the wheel is unintentional, the referee orders another scrum at the place where the scrum is stopped. The same team throws in the ball.

 

[Taff]

.... the Laws of turn over do apply to that age group (U19) - in other words at U19 its a wheel beyond 90 degrees the team NOT in possession at the time of stoppage throws in.

But an U19 scrum will never get to 90 degrees surely ... because we blow up when the FRs go past 45 degrees.

Just reset the scrum ..... and the same side throws it in again.

 

[Dixie]

gosh what a mess the RFU seem to have made to appendix 2.
http://www.rfu.com/~/media/files/thegame/regulations/rfu_regulation_15_appendix_2_2013...

...

RFU
[LAWS]5.5.9 There is no ‘turnover’ law at U18. If scrums are reset for wheeling beyond 45 degrees the throw-in is to the side in possession at the time it is wheeled beyond 45 degrees.[/LAWS]

Surely that's a cock up. I can't imagine the RFU meant to issue regualtions different from the IRB, and didn't tell anyone

The RFU strengthens its already solid reputation for incompetence. The scrum turnover law at the wheel is the one that gives the put-in at the reset to the side not in possession:

[LAWS]20.11(b) This new scrum is formed at the place where the previous scrum ended. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.[/LAWS]

The intent for the last goodness-knows-how-many-years has been that the side originally putting in gets to put it in again. With the first sentence having disapplied the turnover provision, the second sentence then goes on to apply a wholly new provision - which is that the put-in now goes to whichever side had possession - but in the event of a heel against the head, this could well be a turnover, in direct conflict with the wording of the first sentence.

Duh!

 

[Rich]

So I'm none the wiser.

Do I apply RFU - in which case there is a chance for a turn over at U13-18 & U19
Do I apply RFU - in which case U19s can wheel all the way to 90 degrees and the laws of over 19s apply.
Do I apply IRB for U19 in which case they can't go past 45 degrees??
Do I apply IRB for U19 in which case the same team puts in the ball as did the first time.

 

[didds]

what does your society say Rich? All VERY valid questions - and as CRefC I need to know to best approasie our club refs etc


didds

 

[Phil E]

Apply the laws of the game (IRB).

 

[Rich]

Hi Didds,

I have to agree with Phil and would have to say that IRB wins each time and that is the take of societies I'm sure (I will check with mine and come back to this thread to confirm). What it does highlight is the potential for an argument on the side line, which of course has no bearing on the Referee, whose decision is final, but at a club level we all need to be on the same page - and in this case, not the RFU's page but the IRB page. It's just rubbish that the 2011 version of the RFU Appendix "clarification" made this error and the 2013 version has not amended it.

so U13-u19s inclusive;
I will be stopping the scrum at 45 degrees - if nothing else on safety grounds which I believe is the sentiment in this variation
I will be stopping the scrum pushing beyond 1.5M - reasons as above
I will be awarding the throw in to the original throwers-in at the reset if there is no deliberate wheel.

 

[crossref]

so U13-u19s inclusive;
I will be stopping the scrum at 45 degrees - if nothing else on safety grounds which I believe is the sentiment in this variation
I will be stopping the scrum pushing beyond 1.5M - reasons as above
I will be awarding the throw in to the original throwers-in at the reset if there is no deliberate wheel.

that's what I will continue to do, and will advice the refs in my club to do.
but it's most annoying to have to referee contrary to the RFU regualtions.

I suggest that all of us here who have a direct link to the RFU - ie those of us who are CRefC for club, or in a Society official position, should quickly raise it with our RFU contact, and ask them to sort it out.

I am sure the RFU meant to follow the IRB Laws.

 

[didds]

and that makes sense to em too.

But is not just "argument on the side line, which of course has no bearing on the Referee, whose decision is final"... because the referee in the games that use CLUB refs is a CLUB referee... so the potential is there that one side's ref has one law ruling and another has a different one... depending on who is playing at home. Yes, the referee is "!always right" - but it doesn;t help when the ref is a club coach who otherwise would be on the sideline watching the OTHER coach ref...

didds

 

[crossref]

exactly didds, and another angle : it's actually the less-experienced club referee who is most likely to be carefully reading the RFU Regulations, memorising, applying them on the field, and then finding out aftwerwards that 'oh, no, everyone knows to follow the IRB regulations on a different website' which would be a dispriting experience for a newbie ref.

 

[Rich]

Didds, I have to agree that any confusion is a nightmare, especially at club level - as I too coach and it always seems to fall on me to explain the "Rules" [sic] to my age group (U14). It's something that needs to be passed up the food chain to the RFU, so will make a start...

One thing that is coming up though through Surrey (not sure if this extends any further) is that Club referees will as of this year (now) need to be accredited by Surrey. This can be done by the new club CRC and is mandatory from U10s upwards. No friendly or league game can be refereed by anyone not accredited. I believe the pay-off is a pretty red and blue shirt that must be worn. All U17/18 matches as well as U16As will be covered by LSRFUR. Hopefully that will mean certain U19 laws will be made clear to the newly accredited officials.

 

[crossref]

One thing that is coming up though through Surrey (not sure if this extends any further) is that Club referees will as of this year (now) need to be accredited by Surrey. This can be done by the new club CRC and is mandatory from U10s upwards. No friendly or league game can be refereed by anyone not accredited. I believe the pay-off is a pretty red and blue shirt that must be worn. All U17/18 matches as well as U16As will be covered by LSRFUR. Hopefully that will mean certain U19 laws will be made clear to the newly accredited officials.

that's very interesting - and seems like a very good direction.
But will accreditation mean passing ELRA2 ? that's quite a barrier to entry at u10s - a two day course before you can even try your hand at it? Mostly it goes the other way round, people try their hand, get intrigued, do an ELRA.
In my club our self-imposed rule is that all referees have an ELRA from U13 upwards. Below that they can be on their way to an ELRA. when I talk to other CRC , that seems to be typical.

On U18/U17/U16A have LSRFUR committed to covering them all? That's quite a big commitment. Although - to be fair - whenever we have asked LSRFUR for a referee at U18/U17/U16A they have always found one.

 

[Rich]

that's very interesting - and seems like a very good direction.
But will accreditation mean passing ELRA? that's quite a barrier to entry at u10s - a two day course before you can even try your hand at it?

This is only for Friendlies against other clubs and league matches (leagues don't start until U13) so I would have thought there is plenty of time to have a go at U10s in the club environment before doing ELRA

On U18/U17/U16A have LSRFUR committed to covering them all?

Not sure if this just a SW LSRFUR directive or one for the whole society, as this club referee requirement is coming from Surrey, but check your "posse"....What region are you in by the way?

 

[Dixie]

Apply the laws of the game (IRB).

I'm sure Phil doesn't think that the RFU's U.13 variations are invalid because they are not the same as the iRB's U.19 variations. Individual unions have dispensation to vary the U.19 regs to suit individual needs, so the RFU is permitted to adopt its own regs. As a Society ref affiliated to the RFU, Rich should adopt the RFU's variations. If they are f*cked up, that's the RFU's problem not Rich's. When they tweak them again, that is the time to adopt the tweak - even if it's stupid. Governing bodies should govern. As with the political arena, it is not for the police (or referees) to determine which laws they like and which they don't.

 

[Rich]

As a Society ref affiliated to the RFU, Rich should adopt the RFU's variations.

:chin:

Gonna have to clear this one up with RFU......

be right back...

 

[Dixie]

Just checked previous versions of the text. It hasn't changed from the version that was around in 2011. Whatever was done last year and the one before should be done this year. I suspect that means you ignore what the RFU says, and actually do what the RFU means - which is that the team putting in to the original scrum gets to put in to the reset scrum - irrespective of which side was in possession.

 

[crossref]

Dixie you are right, but our suspicion is that this is a mistake. It seems unlikely that the RFU would make a change like this without bringing it to everyone attention

 

[Rich]

And I'm the pedant who noticed it. Do i get a special prize? epper: