[Scrum] When is the No8 fair game?

[Ciaran Trainor]

Seen this a few times in my last couple of games.
Ball in a stationary scrum at red second rows feet. Red 8 reaches in with one hand and picks up the ball, now legal. Can Blue scrum half tackle him or does he have to leave him until he breaks his bind with other arm, I think so.
Similarly Red again reaches in and then has two hands on the ball but still inside scrum i.e. in front of second rows feet. For me he's now clearly fair game.
Any thoughts?

 

[crossref]

This came up at a Society meeting I went to

Answer circulated was

In answer to a question raised at the meeting on Monday regarding the N0. 8 being allowed to pick up the ball in the scrum.



As promised clarification and an answer to the question:

“When does the scrum end after the No.8 picks up from the 2nd row?



Answer: It is being applied as scrum over when the ball has left the ground. Same as for receiver at ruck

.

 

[didds]

Does the new law trial allow the #8 to be bound with one arm and pick up out of the second row?

didds

 

[Christy]

Seen this a few times in my last couple of games.
Ball in a stationary scrum at red second rows feet. Red 8 reaches in with one hand and picks up the ball, now legal. Can Blue scrum half tackle him or does he have to leave him until he breaks his bind with other arm, I think so.
Similarly Red again reaches in and then has two hands on the ball but still inside scrum i.e. in front of second rows feet. For me he's now clearly fair game.
Any thoughts?

If ball was at back of scrum at nr 8s feet .
With their scrum half with hands on the ball .
Would you consider this now fair game for opposition scrum half to tackle him .
((( I WOULD NOT )))

the new laws simply allow nr 8 to gather ball from inside his teams scrum .
Hands on the ball is not the the same as gathered ( or has possesion )
Opposition nr 9 as we all know cant go into pocket any more .

On grounds of safety , we couldnt allow opposition scrum half to attempt to tackle nr 8 , whilst he is acually gathering ball from inside scrum .
Also opposition scrum half cant step in front of ball , whilst ball is in scrum ( this law should cover scenario )

Its an interesting question .
For me , if nr 8 has ball in his hands & is standing in his nr 8 position looking for options .
Yes let opposition nr 9 come around .

 

[crossref]

Does the new law trial allow the #8 to be bound with one arm and pick up out of the second row?

didds

Realistically, given that he's explicitly allowed to pick up a ball in the second row, he's often going to do it with one hand , isn't he ?

It's a rubbish Law trial, for just this reason.

 

[chbg]

Does the new law trial allow the #8 to be bound with one arm and pick up out of the second row?

didds

No. MSF

 

[Pegleg]

No. MSF

Why not?

Law 20.9 (b)
The number eight shall be allowed to pick the ball from the feet of the second-rows.

Law 20.3 (f) requires "ALL Other Players (IE NOT FR) to bind ... with at least one arm..." So the 8 can bind with one arm and NOT pick up the ball but not if he picks it up? That can't be right. Crossref is spot on. He pretty much HAS TO BE bound with only one arm to do it.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

Why not?

Law 20.9 (b)
The number eight shall be allowed to pick the ball from the feet of the second-rows.

Law 20.3 (f) requires "ALL Other Players (IE NOT FR) to bind ... with at least one arm..." So the 8 can bind with one arm and NOT pick up the ball but not if he picks it up? That can't be right. Crossref is spot on. He pretty much HAS TO BE bound with only one arm to do it.

So can he pick the ball up with one arm, keep it held under one arm while bound with the other, while the scrum is moving forward, like he would at the back of a maul? This would seem wrong. I agree with the interpretation, once he has picked it up, the scrum is ended, offside lines stop applying and he is fair game to be tackled.

 

[crossref]

the difference now is that
- previously the #8 would/had to unbind, and then pick up the ball
- now it seems likely that they will be tempted/allowed to pick up the ball (with one hand) and then unbind

with the Society ruling that I have received (#2) the scrum is over when the ball leaves the ground.
That seems reasonable to me
but at this moment the #8 might be still actually bound. but the scrum is over an he can be tackled.
This does not seem like a happy situation.

 

[Balones]

Does the new law trial allow the #8 to be bound with one arm and pick up out of the second row?

didds

Raised at Panel meeting.
Pick up with one hand - ball out - use it. No difference to previous interpretation of laws when it was at the back and at his/her feet. If you pick up and remain in the scrum you have caused an obstruction, if nothing else.

 

[didds]

Raised at Panel meeting.
Pick up with one hand - ball out - use it. No difference to previous interpretation of laws when it was at the back and at his/her feet. If you pick up and remain in the scrum you have caused an obstruction, if nothing else.

So... #8 bound with one arm, picks up with the other, now oppo scrumhalf just has to bump the left flanker to claim accidental obstruction and scrum turnover?

Just checking?

didds

 

[Balones]

So... #8 bound with one arm, picks up with the other, now oppo scrumhalf just has to bump the left flanker to claim accidental obstruction and scrum turnover?

Just checking?

didds

Once picked up the No8 has the same options as before - pass it or run with it. Similarly any other player has the same options and restrictions.

If I was coaching a team I would say that reaching into the second row is going to slow down your ability slightly to break away and run with the ball and the quickest option is to offload to the S/H. However if the scrum is wheeling a little this may give a bit more time to breakaway?

Why pick up with one hand? You have more chance of knocking on I would have thought. But if you pick up with one hand you have the same time restrictions as before. As for running into the W/F - strictly speaking you couldn't do that before because you are expected to keep off the scrum.

 

[didds]

so basically its just going to get messy as scrumhalves half climb over breaking flankers to get at the #8?

that'll work...

didds

 

[Balones]

so basically its just going to get mkessy adn scrumhalves half climb over breaking flankers to get at the #8?

that'll work...

didds

I'll admit that making contact with the scrum by S/Hs and W/Fs altering their angle has not been as rigidly policed as it should have been or should be. However, what you described is not permitted.
Are you describing the W/F breaking away at the same time as the No8 and bumping into the S/H? In which case we have a simple case of the W/F obstructing the S/H if he alters his direction of movement. If the S/H deliberately runs into the W/F we either have a play on because the S/H has disadvantaged himself or if there is more robust contact then we have playing the player without the ball - foul play.

 

[crossref]

I don't really understand what is the problem that this Law trial is meant to fix. I can see various problems it creates , as in the posts above, but have lost sight of what the benefits of the change are supposed to be ..

 

[ChuckieB]

I don't really understand what is the problem that this Law trial is meant to fix. I can see various problems it creates , as in the posts above, but have lost sight of what the benefits of the change are supposed to be ..

Speeds ball back into play as it gives an option that will end the scrum sooner.

 

[didds]

I'll admit that making contact with the scrum by S/Hs and W/Fs altering their angle has not been as rigidly policed as it should have been or should be. However, what you described is not permitted.
Are you describing the W/F breaking away at the same time as the No8 and bumping into the S/H? In which case we have a simple case of the W/F obstructing the S/H if he alters his direction of movement. If the S/H deliberately runs into the W/F we either have a play on because the S/H has disadvantaged himself or if there is more robust contact then we have playing the player without the ball - foul play.

Yep - basically. If the scrum is over when the still bound #8 picks up the ball with his free hand, then the s/half (not in the pocket of course) is able to tackle the #8. However as the scrum is now over (but #8 still bound - just) the flank can also unbind. Now you have the flank potentially obstructing the scrum half who is trying to get to the #8. Which is what i asked above. I thought you were disagreeing with me that the flank would be obstructing but I think i misread that

In short - the scrum is over. so whether the flank stands or remains down the law requiring the s/half no contact with the flank is now redundant - there is no scrum for the scrumhalf to touch.

So again - still bound #8 picks up one handed, s/half bumps flanker, scrum turnover for accidental offside then.

didds

- - - Updated - - -

another thought - does the #8 actually have top pick up? Or remaining bound can he use his free hand to "flap" the ball back from the second row along the ground?

didds

 

[crossref]

Speeds ball back into play as it gives an option that will end the scrum sooner.

yes, I guess, but I can't ever remember thinking : if only the #8 was allowed to reach into the scrum it would all end sooner.
I think
- it will be seldom used --- it's obviously a lot easier/faster for a #8 to pick up a ball at his feet
- when it is used, far from seeing the ball swiftly away at the back of the scrum, we'll see a pile up as flankers who can see the ball all unbind, the SH makes a lunge for the 8, and it's all really messy.

If the ref lets the #8 get away with it, I expect we'll see the #8 reaching with one hand and rolling the ball back along the ground to get back to a postion where he can unbind and grab the ball in one easy movement, in the traditional way. Is that an improvement? I am not sure. (edit -- I see didds has just had pretty much the same thought, in the post above. Great minds etc etc)

 

[ChuckieB]

yes, I guess, but I can't ever remember thinking : if only the #8 was allowed to reach into the scrum it would all end sooner.
I think
- it will be seldom used --- it's obviously a lot easier/faster for a #8 to pick up a ball at his feet
- when it is used, far from seeing the ball swiftly away at the back of the scrum, we'll see a pile up as flankers who can see the ball all unbind, the SH makes a lunge for the 8, and it's all really messy.

If the ref lets the #8 get away with it, I expect we'll see the #8 reaching with one hand and rolling the ball back along the ground to get back to a postion where he can unbind and grab the ball in one easy movement, in the traditional way. Is that an improvement? I am not sure. (edit -- I see didds has just had pretty much the same thought, in the post above. Great minds etc etc)

The pick up is an exception to the handling in the scrum laws.

Is the #8 likely to pick that side to break? I would have thought the free side will be his first port of call?

 

[Taff]

I don't really understand what is the problem that this Law trial is meant to fix. I can see various problems it creates , as in the posts above, but have lost sight of what the benefits of the change are supposed to be ..

Speeds ball back into play as it gives an option that will end the scrum sooner.

I think Chuckie's hit it on the head. Sadly, I reckon that scrums at elite level got so messy, that WR just looked at every possible suggestion to bring the scrums to an end as soon as possible.

Personally, I reckon there wasn't anything wrong with the previous law - the problems cropped up because the law just wasn't being enforced. :sad: