[Scrum] When is the No8 fair game?

[didds]

The #8 isn't breaking. he is picking up the ball. At that juncture the scrum is over. The flank may stand. The oppo scrumhalf wants to nail the #8, who may be still bound (but scrum over).

That's the point/issue/concern. Not which way the #8 may or may not go. Because at the moment of picking up the ball and ending the scrum he ain't going anywhere.

didds

 

[didds]

Personally, I reckon there wasn't anything wrong with the previous law - the problems cropped up because the law just wasn't being enforced. :sad:

Can;t recall the details but ISTR Falatou scoring from the base of a scrum that had wheeled and got messy and he unbound and picked the ball out of the second row?

didds

 

[Pinky]

We were told that scrum was over when the no8 picked it up. I am not sure why it was put in as an exception to no handling in the scrum, rather than an extension of the permission for the hindmost player with the ball at his feet to break his binding and pick up the ball and that was scrum over.

 

[crossref]

most of the time the #8 really wouldn't want to pick the ball out of the second row --- because it's hard to reach it, grab it, unbind and get away all very quickly, and without knocking on, or losing your balance.

occasionally there will be some sort of weird scrum where it does work, perhaps a wheel, or loose binds or somethnig, #8s would do it.

We would ref this once or twice a season wouldn't we? At most.
Generally you'd let it go with a quick word after. Sometimes if it looked really wrong you'd penalise.

But if someone had asked me three months ago to make fifty suggestions for the Law changes that would most help the game of rugby, I'd not have come up with that.

 

[Balones]

The #8 isn't breaking. he is picking up the ball. At that juncture the scrum is over. The flank may stand. The oppo scrumhalf wants to nail the #8, who may be still bound (but scrum over).

That's the point/issue/concern. Not which way the #8 may or may not go. Because at the moment of picking up the ball and ending the scrum he ain't going anywhere.

didds

I might be not seeing the scenario clearly but I cannot see any difference between what happens (or should have happened) before. when the the No8 previously picked up the ball with one or two hands then the scrum was over. If the S/H was obstructed by the actions of the W/F it was (should be) a penalty. At the same time you would not reward a S/H for running (walking) into the W/F. If the W/F merely stands up and maintains his ground then the S/h has to go round.

 

[crossref]

I might be not seeing the scenario clearly but I cannot see any difference between what happens (or should have happened) before. when the the No8 previously picked up the ball with one or two hands then the scrum was over. If the S/H was obstructed by the actions of the W/F it was (should be) a penalty. At the same time you would not reward a S/H for running (walking) into the W/F. If the W/F merely stands up and maintains his ground then the S/h has to go round.

when a #8 picks up the ball at his feet, the unbinding and the picking up are pretty much simultaneous. (yes, yes, of course the unbinding is first, but the whole action is really quick)

when a #8 reaches into the scrum, he's very likely going to use one hand, so he can keep his balance, so far from being simultaneous the picking up will come first, and the unbinding a clear second.

we will have a short - but clear - space of time where he has picked up the ball, scrum is over, but he's still bound into it. it's possible that all four flankers will actually unbind (legally) before he does.

I think it's a quite different scenario

 

[didds]

I might be not seeing the scenario clearly but I cannot see any difference between what happens (or should have happened) before. when the the No8 previously picked up the ball with one or two hands then the scrum was over. If the S/H was obstructed by the actions of the W/F it was (should be) a penalty. At the same time you would not reward a S/H for running (walking) into the W/F. If the W/F merely stands up and maintains his ground then the S/h has to go round.

Before: ball had to be at the #8s feet. If he had one arm bound and picked up the ball with the free arm, that was handling in the scrum. If he unbound and reached into the seocnd row and grabbed the ball that was handling in the scrum.

Now: #8 can apparently remain bound with one arm and pick up with the free arm. Now scrum over (though still bound). And/Or #8 can reach into the second row to pick up - play on, scrum over.

The difference is a huge one - then it was PK, now its play on.

didds

 

[Balones]

Once you pick it up the scrum is over, whether you pick it up with one or two hands or if you are technically still bound. it doesn't matter if the ball is in the second row or under the No8's feet. I can see there being a slight delay if you are picking out of the second row but this shouldn't alter the decisions the referee has to make.

P.S. I would not allow flapping back with the hand. That is handling in scrum. not allowed before - not allowed now.

 

[crossref]

Once you pick it up the scrum is over, whether you pick it up with one or two hands or if you are technically still bound. it doesn't matter if the ball is in the second row or under the No8's feet. I can see there being a slight delay if you are picking out of the second row but this shouldn't alter the decisions the referee has to make.

I think it makes it more likely that a decision is needed -- ie it will be harder for the #8 to get away cleanly, and if he doesn't the ref will have to work out if anything illegal happened (early unbind, obstructions, early tackle etc) ... and then either peep or play on.

And the decsion possibly made without being able to easily see the precise moment the ball was picked up.

 

[didds]

The nuance now is that by being able to remain bound to pick the ball up (whether 2nd row or under feet) the break off will be slowed. that is time the oppo s/half can potentially tackle the #8.

With a more standard approach the #8 could unbind and be away PROBABLY quicker than remaining bound etc - especially if the pick up one handed is from the 2nd row . That's the crux.

didds

 

[ChuckieB]

The nuance now is that by being able to remain bound to pick the ball up (whether 2nd row or under feet) the break off will be slowed. that is time the oppo s/half can potentially tackle the #8.

With a more standard approach the #8 could unbind and be away PROBABLY quicker than remaining bound etc - especially if the pick up one handed is from the 2nd row . That's the crux.

didds

Who suggested remaining bound in the first place?

A pick up is a pick up and the scrum is over.

No issue IMO.

 

[didds]

Who suggested remaining bound in the first place?
.

somebody up there ^^^^

I asked in #3. CR answered in #5 ... and onwards. there appeared to a general consensus (I perceived) that it was possible. It seemed an obvious to thing to check about.

didds

 

[Pegleg]

So can he pick the ball up with one arm, keep it held under one arm while bound with the other, while the scrum is moving forward, like he would at the back of a maul? This would seem wrong. I agree with the interpretation, once he has picked it up, the scrum is ended, offside lines stop applying and he is fair game to be tackled.

That is notthing to do with What Didds said, which was "Does the new law trial allow the #8 to be bound with one arm and pick up out of the second row?"

The law clearly does allow that. No, he can't pick it up in the scrum and keep the scrum live the ball has to leave the scrum. The rational is to provide continuity of play getting the ball into play.

 

[Pegleg]

Raised at Panel meeting.
Pick up with one hand - ball out - use it. No difference to previous interpretation of laws when it was at the back and at his/her feet. If you pick up and remain in the scrum you have caused an obstruction, if nothing else.

Pretty obvious. if the 8 picks up the scrum is over and anything else other than him removing the other arm and moving away will be an offence. Doe not stop him beign bound with one are and picking it up.

 

[Pegleg]

If the flanker can be bound until the ball is picked up and therfore the scrum is over and he can then get to the 8 before he's fully unbound then the 8 probably is usung the other 7 players as a block. If the 8 is picking up one handed (as the law allows) whilst being bound he needs to act pretty quickly and get the ball away from, what remains of, the scrum.

 

[OB..]

The Law variation simply says[LAWS]20.9 (b) Handling in the scrum - exception

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Allow the number eight to pick the ball from the feet of the second-rows.[/FONT][/LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]

Nothing about remaining bound while he does so.

To make sense of it I assume the ball is not out until the #8 has lifted it out, but that if he unbinds, he must not delay picking the ball up.

That means the scrum half can go wide and the #8 has time to pass to him.

The WR video clip is not too clear, but it looks as if he first puts a hand on the ball to steady it before releasing the bind with his other hand to pick up the ball.[/FONT]

 

[VM75]

In practice, provided the pick up has happened and the No8 doesn't procrastinate, then I'm expecting the 9 to wait until the unbind is clear and obvious before he can jump all over the 8.**

I see the intention of this law trial is to facilitate the extraction [via a handling exception/permission] , and not to give the 9 a chance to immediately disrupt the emerging ball - under the same methodology as 9 now being stopped from stepping over the flanker.

** it's similar [in reverse] to the protection 9 gets at ruck/maul time when ruck/maul participants are denied grabbing 9 before the ball is 'clearly' removed.

least that's how I'm refereeing it.

 

[crossref]

VM75 see post 2 !

 

[didds]

the scrum half at a ruck can dig etc - but ball clear of the floor is ball out and tackle on surely?

So #8 bound one armed and picked up with the other is tackle on presumably?

As #2 said "Answer: It is being applied as scrum over when the ball has left the ground. Same as for receiver at ruck"

The #8 cannot pick up and stay immune from a tackle merely because he is still bound on surely?

didds

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

the scrum half at a ruck can dig etc - but ball clear of the floor is ball out and tackle on surely?

So #8 bound one armed and picked up with the other is tackle on presumably?

As #2 said "Answer: It is being applied as scrum over when the ball has left the ground. Same as for receiver at ruck"

The #8 cannot pick up and stay immune from a tackle merely because he is still bound on surely?

didds

As soon as he's picked the ball off the floor the scrum is over so if he tries to stay bound to players infront of him we have an offside/obstruction scenario anyway - so he won't want to stay bound and in reality he will want to get away quickly from the base whether he is picking it up from 2nd row or his own feet? Of course he'll be a bit slower if digging further into the scrum, but the further in the ball is, the further the SH has to come around to tackle him, so surely it should offset? I really don't see how this will be a problem.