Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

[Balones]

Yes. Hmm
What's still clearly the same is the indication of where the scrum takes place.

What's changed - or missing - is the instruction NOT to give a dropout when the ball is knocked on over the goal line and then touched down.

Is that an important Law , does that make a difference ? It's certainly a Law that is often cited here , and also a Law that covers a pretty common circumstance .

For me , if there is knock on over the goal line into the in goal and touched down, then to justify a decision of scrum (rather than a 22m) you would need the 2017 Law Book

This has been debated at length in the past but I have not participated because there is no point. When the attacking side knock on in goal then it is a scrum 5M. That is the way it is (or should be) refereed. If anyone disagrees then take it up with WR. Nothing else will change this situation.

When asked about an explanation I simply say that at a knock on by the attacking side in goal there is an opportunity to play an advantage and allow the defending side to play the ball. If the defending doesn’t want to play the ball and touch down instead, then they have made the ball dead. Just as if in open play they make the ball dead in effect by either not doing anything and waiting for the ref to blow his whistle or even knocking on themselves. I have always said that it is within the remit of the referee to decide if he/she can offer an advantage but he/she cannot make a side accept an advantage. Once the opposition decide to try to take an advantage (play with the ball/possession) then it is up to the referee to decide if this has been achieved. Touching down in goal is declining to play with the ball. Therefore scrum for the knock on. Where? – 5M – the only place possible.

 

[ChrisR]

This is the same old discussion but crossrefs point of playing advantage (and awarding a 22 DO in certain circumstances) now has more merit as specific instructions have been removed from both knock-on law and in-goal law.

Therefore we should address a knock-on in or into goal in a consistent way throughout the playing area and other applicable laws.

1. Attacking player knock-on occurs in or into goal. Play advantage.

2. Attacking player (or teammate) grounds the ball, 5m scrum to defenders.

3. Defending player picks up the ball and continues play. If advantage gained then play on. If no advantage 5m scrum to defenders.

4. Defending player grounds the ball. 22 drop out as stated in Law 12.11:
[LAWS]11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre
drop-out.
[/LAWS]

5. The ball goes into dead ball or touch-in-goal. 22 DO as ball is played into goal and goes dead. Actually I'd offer the defending team the choice of 22 DO or 5m scrum.

 

[crossref]

After a knock on its commonplace for the other team to kick for touch, or kick it out to end the game.

If the defenders knock on in goal we'd all let the attackers touch it down for a try.

 

[Balones]

This is the same old discussion but crossrefs point of playing advantage (and awarding a 22 DO in certain circumstances) now has more merit as specific instructions have been removed from both knock-on law and in-goal law.

Therefore we should address a knock-on in or into goal in a consistent way throughout the playing area and other applicable laws.

1. Attacking player knock-on occurs in or into goal. Play advantage.

2. Attacking player (or teammate) grounds the ball, 5m scrum to defenders.

3. Defending player picks up the ball and continues play. If advantage gained then play on. If no advantage 5m scrum to defenders.

4. Defending player grounds the ball. 22 drop out as stated in Law 12.11:
[LAWS]11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre
drop-out.
[/LAWS]

5. The ball goes into dead ball or touch-in-goal. 22 DO as ball is played into goal and goes dead. Actually I'd offer the defending team the choice of 22 DO or 5m scrum.

What we have to remember is that at a knock on by the attacking side this creates a dead ball because it is an offence. The action of the defending side of making the ball dead in some way is the second action of making the ball dead. Under such circumstances the ref applies the first. Therefore 5M scrum.

 

[Camquin]

So Red knock on, blue gather, run forward 22m and then into touch. What do you give?

 

[crossref]

What we have to remember is that at a knock on by the attacking side this creates a dead ball because it is an offence. The action of the defending side of making the ball dead in some way is the second action of making the ball dead. Under such circumstances the ref applies the first. Therefore 5M scrum.

2018 Law reference please ?

 

[ChrisR]

What we have to remember is that at a knock on by the attacking side this creates a dead ball because it is an offence. The action of the defending side of making the ball dead in some way is the second action of making the ball dead. Under such circumstances the ref applies the first. Therefore 5M scrum.

This does not create a dead ball. The ball only becomes dead when the referee blows to stop play or the goes dead (dead ball line, touchin-goal )

Then please explain law 12.11

11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.

 

[Balones]

So Red knock on, blue gather, run forward 22m and then into touch. What do you give?

If the referee decides there has been sufficient advantage played (assuming that advantage is being played because you did not say) then it is a lineout. If not then a scrum to the defending side 5M from the try line. (Assuming of course that red were the attacking side and the knock on took place in goal.)

 

[ChrisR]

This ^^^^^

 

[Balones]

2018 Law reference please ?

19.1 p90 as I have said before. Or are you actually saying that a knock on does not create a situation where the referee doesn’t/can blow his whistle? A knock on is an offence under law and has been for as long as I can remember.

 

[Balones]

This does not create a dead ball. The ball only becomes dead when the referee blows to stop play or the goes dead (dead ball line, touchin-goal )

Then please explain law 12.11

11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.

No offence creates a dead ball automatically unless the referee decides that an advantage play cannot be offered for whatever reason. If there was a knock on in goal by the attacking side and nobody did snything then we still have a knock on and a dead ball because the referee would have to blow. As you you say a dead ball only happens when the ref blows his whistle but that applies to every offence.

12.11 applies when there is no previous offence by the attacking side to the making of the ball dead by the defending side.

 

[crossref]

This is so much fun
For last few years i have been disputing knock on INSIDE the in goal and everyone has been hitting me around the round with 22.7.b as a guiding light
And now 22.7.b is gone suddenly everyone is saying it was redundant all along
This one will run and run

 

[Balones]

Don’t forget 22.13.
2018 is a simplified interpretation of 2017 and they will co-exist until a newer amended version comes out which may include the trials/experiments that are taking place at the moment. 2018 is a start and a brave attempt at rectifying a large number of issues that have caused concern over the years. One of the first things that may need to be done if the 2018 vesion in some form continues is to update the references in the law clarifications that are on the WR website since they are also law. That process should be interesting!

 

[Ian_Cook]

This is so much fun
For last few years i have been disputing knock on INSIDE the in goal and everyone has been hitting me around the round with 22.7.b as a guiding light
And now 22.7.b is gone suddenly everyone is saying it was redundant all along
This one will run and run

No, this is not correct. Its not GONE, its just been reworded

[LAWS]2018 Law 11 KNOCK-ON
1. A knock- on may occur anywhere in the playing area.
2. It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes
contact with the ball and the ball goes forward. Sanction: Scrum.[/LAWS]
In-goal is part of the playing area


[LAWS]2018 Law 19
The purpose of a scrum is to restart play with a contest for possession after a minor
infringement or stoppage.

1. Where the game is restarted with a scrum and which team throws in is determined as
follows:

[/LAWS]

The scrum zone is defined in Law 1 (bottom right diagram on page 25)

The end result is exactly the same... whether the ball is knocked on in-goal or knocked on INTO in goal, the mark for the scrum is 5m out, nearest to the the knock on, defending team to feed.

The specific reference is gone because the rewording and reorganisation has removed the need for it. ...but the Law has NOT changed!

NOTE: It seems pretty obvious to me that this new "scrumzone" has been implemented to remove the need for all those references (dozens of them) to "5m out from the goal line" and "5m in from touch". By having a table in 2018 Law 19 showing the type of Infringement or stoppage, the location of the scrum and who throws in, they have removed the need for a LOT of wording in the Law. The Law simply says that the sanction is a scrum, and you go to Law 19 to find where the mark is.

 

[Balones]

While on the same page as you Ian I cannot help but think that it would have been of benefit to have put Sanction - Scrum after 11.1 as well as 11.2. I think they have intended to join the two together but not made it 100% clear. It certainly would have made our arguments/positions a lot less refutable.

 

[crossref]

The location of the scrum is not an issue (and on truth never has been)
This discussion all about the application of the advantage law.

 

[Ian_Cook]

The location of the scrum is not an issue (and on truth never has been)
This discussion all about the application of the advantage law.

No! Your argument AIUI is that if you play the advantage,

1. if no advantage accrues, you award a 5m scrum
2. if you call advantage over before the defending team gets the ball out of in-goal and the defenders touch the ball down, you can award a DO22, thereby using the advanantge Law to do an end run around a Law you don't like.

This is wrong! Advantage must be territorial or tactical. There cannot be any tactical advantage accrued for a knock-on in or into goal until the defending team gets the ball out of the in goal. No referee worth his salt is going to call advantage over when the defending team is still trying to exit the in-goal.

 

[Ian_Cook]

While on the same page as you Ian I cannot help but think that it would have been of benefit to have put Sanction - Scrum after 11.1 as well as 11.2. I think they have intended to join the two together but not made it 100% clear. It certainly would have made our arguments/positions a lot less refutable.

I don't think so. 11.1 is not saying what a knock-on is, only where it can happen. (see Law 14, 15, 16)

A Sanction should only be listed when a specific "instruction" is given by the Law

 

[Balones]

I don't think so. 11.1 is not saying what a knock-on is, only where it can happen. (see Law 14, 15, 16)

A Sanction should only be listed when a specific "instruction" is given by the Law

I accept what you say because I agree. It’s just that I also think that it would have been useful to have put it there also. The fact that it just saying where it can happen doesn’t negate the usefulness of putting it there also in my opinion.

 

[crossref]

No! Your argument AIUI is that if you play the advantage,

1. if no advantage accrues, you award a 5m scrum
2. if you call advantage over before the defending team gets the ball out of in-goal and the defenders touch the ball down, you can award a DO22, thereby using the advanantge Law to do an end run around a Law you don't like.

This is wrong! Advantage must be territorial or tactical. There cannot be any tactical advantage accrued for a knock-on in or into goal until the defending team gets the ball out of the in goal. No referee worth his salt is going to call advantage over when the defending team is still trying to exit the in-goal.

No, not at all.

I am saying that the after a knock on there are a number of ways the non infringing team might gain advantage.
So normally you would call advantage' over if

.. they get in front of the gain line (where the scrum would be) with clean possession

.. they are able to kick (not under pressure ) some distance down field

.. they are able to kick (not under pressure ) for touch with gain in ground

.. they able to kick the ball out of play to end the game
.. they touch down the ball in the opposition in goal to score a try
.. they are able (not under pressure) to touch the ball in their own in goal for a 22m dropout

I think you will agree with all of those , except the last one . I think your position is harder to justify with the 2018 law book