Where's the offsides line?

jdeagro


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I recently read a post someone made (which at the time made sense in my head) that stated just because two people who are rucking disengage from each other doesn't mean the ruck ended. Essentially they were going by the ruck laws saying that a ruck can only end a few ways, and if the rucking players disengage (and presumably) setup on-sides (respectively) the ruck is still not over.

My question is in regard to this, in scenario that their are only 2 people rucking (1 player from each team.) Where are the off-sides lines for both the attacking and defending team if the only two rucking players are no longer engaged in the ruck? (I don't think it makes a difference if the tackled player is still on the ground, under the ruck in this case, but use your judgement and answer accordingly if you think the tackled player (and / or tackler) being on the ground under the ruck in this scenario affects the outcome.)

I think I have an idea of how I'd perceive it, but I don't want to give anyone any ideas without their own input first. :p

Thanks.
 

pwhaling


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I would say that if there are no more people in the ruck, than the ruck has ended. Ruck definition:
.... one or more players from each team...

Does it matter if the ball leaves the ruck, or if the ruck leaves the ball?

If only one team leaves, you still have a ruck.
 

OB..


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[LAWS]RULING 3: 2007Law Ruling by Designated Members of Rugby Committee
1 October 2007
The GRU has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16.6 Successful end to
a ruck
1. A ruck is formed and the ball is playable for Team A. All players in Team B
now leave the ruck and step back. Is there still a ruck or has the ruck ended?
The Designated Members have ruled the following in answer to the question
raised:
- A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball enters
in goal ie. on or over the goal line.
- A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable.
- As there has been a ruck formed initially, AND the criteria for a successful or
unsuccessful ruck have not been exhibited, then the ruck has not ended.[/LAWS]The offside lines must run through the hindmost parts of the remaining players.
 

Dickie E


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The offside lines must run through the hindmost parts of the remaining players.

So if there's only one player left in the ruck the opposing backlines would be nose to nose :holysheep:
 

The Fat


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[LAWS]RULING 3: 2007Law Ruling by Designated Members of Rugby Committee
1 October 2007
The GRU has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16.6 Successful end to
a ruck
1. A ruck is formed and the ball is playable for Team A. All players in Team B
now leave the ruck and step back. Is there still a ruck or has the ruck ended?
The Designated Members have ruled the following in answer to the question
raised:
- A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball enters
in goal ie. on or over the goal line.
- A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable.
- As there has been a ruck formed initially, AND the criteria for a successful or
unsuccessful ruck have not been exhibited, then the ruck has not ended.[/LAWS]The offside lines must run through the hindmost parts of the remaining players.

If there are no defending team players left in the ruck, then the practice (although not stated in the Law book) similar to a one team maul would be used ie: team in possession = last foot, team not in possession = foremost foot of the foremost player in the ruck, no?
 

Rassie

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So if there's only one player left in the ruck the opposing backlines would be nose to nose :holysheep:
Idea is to make sure after the tackle you lay horizontal and not vertical like the law makers thought it would happen.
 

jdeagro


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[LAWS]RULING 3: 2007Law Ruling by Designated Members of Rugby Committee
1 October 2007
The GRU has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16.6 Successful end to
a ruck
1. A ruck is formed and the ball is playable for Team A. All players in Team B
now leave the ruck and step back. Is there still a ruck or has the ruck ended?
The Designated Members have ruled the following in answer to the question
raised:
- A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball enters
in goal ie. on or over the goal line.
- A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable.
- As there has been a ruck formed initially, AND the criteria for a successful or
unsuccessful ruck have not been exhibited, then the ruck has not ended.[/LAWS]The offside lines must run through the hindmost parts of the remaining players.

But I'm wondering in regards to if there are no remaining players partaking in the ruck. That is my specific scenario (though perhaps foolish for the attacking team to not have any participating players in the ruck.) Where would the offsides line be then, if there are no hindmost parts of remaining because no players remain?
 

Ciaran Trainor


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The ball has successfully left the ruck as there is no ruck therefore no offside lines
 

didds

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the OPs scenario does not seem to be the same as the lar ruling scenrio.


ruck is over.

didds
 

ChrisR

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This is a non-event. I don't see both sides leaving. If it's still contestable then no-one leaves. If it's won the other side may get out but the winning side stays put and we have 5 secs to play it.
 

jdeagro


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This is a non-event. I don't see both sides leaving. If it's still contestable then no-one leaves. If it's won the other side may get out but the winning side stays put and we have 5 secs to play it.

My understanding is your saying that my scenario is not something that would realistically occur? Even so, I would still be interested in the answer. But consider this case, where 1 (and only 1) player from each team form a ruck over the ball and fall over (as a result of bad rucking technique, or the "alligator roll" commonly seen now, etc) to the side of where the tackle occur, and then both players roll away and retreat to get in a position for whatever action is going to occur next. In that case there is no more players rucking over where the tackle occurred and the ruck still hasn't ended according to the previously mentioned ruck laws. I think this scenario is a possibility, and then with no players to gauge where the offsides line is for either team, where would one consider the offsides lines to be?
 

Guyseep


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The ruck has ended because it has left the ruck. There are no longer players bound over the ball, so its out. Similar to if a player bound at the back of a ruck had the ball at his feet and then unbinds-the ball is out, ruck over.

I don't think offside would be an issue, but the real question would be, are players now allowed to reach in and grab the ball with their hands.
 

jdeagro


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I don't think offside would be an issue, but the real question would be, are players now allowed to reach in and grab the ball with their hands.

...And from any side of where the ball is then too eh?
 

Davet

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if two players create and contest a ruck and then fall over, leaving the ball freeand clear on the ground then I think any ref penalising a player who stepped in from his own side of the ball and picked it up, for handling in the ruck would have lot of comments to deal with, and would find it hard to persuade people that he wasn't an uber-technical law geek who had zero commonsense.
 

tim White


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if two players create and contest a ruck and then fall over, leaving the ball freeand clear on the ground then I think any ref penalising a player who stepped in from his own side of the ball and picked it up, for handling in the ruck would have lot of comments to deal with, and would find it hard to persuade people that he wasn't an uber-technical law geek who had zero commonsense.

That doesn't look wrong -so it must be right.
 

Reindeer Flotilla


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But I'm wondering in regards to if there are no remaining players partaking in the ruck. That is my specific scenario (though perhaps foolish for the attacking team to not have any participating players in the ruck.) Where would the offsides line be then, if there are no hindmost parts of remaining because no players remain?

If there are no players left in the ruck, isn't the ball out, e.g., 100% visible from a bird's-eye view?
 

jdeagro


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If there are no players left in the ruck, isn't the ball out, e.g., 100% visible from a bird's-eye view?

That's the general acceptance it seems like, but that's not one of the criteria in the section of the laws that describe when a ruck ends.
 

menace


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if two players create and contest a ruck and then fall over, leaving the ball freeand clear on the ground then I think any ref penalising a player who stepped in from his own side of the ball and picked it up, for handling in the ruck would have lot of comments to deal with, and would find it hard to persuade people that he wasn't an uber-technical law geek who had zero commonsense.

That doesn't look wrong -so it must be right.

So what if it was, say 2 from each side contesting the ruck and they all fall over around the ball...the ball is accessible. Will you then allow any of the SH to just reach in and take the ball??

We've been told (from within our association head honchos/coaches/assessors) that the ruck isn't over as the criteria for a ruck ended has not been met, and therefore the SH can't just reach in and grab it. What needs to occur is that bound players are to enter the 'ruck' and ruck past the ball. This effectively means the ruck is won by that side and the SH is free to play the ball? So is that advice totally wrong???
 
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