Where's the offsides line?

[Dixie]

So what if it was, say 2 from each side contesting the ruck and they all fall over around the ball...the ball is accessible. Will you then allow any of the SH to just reach in and take the ball??

We've been told (from within our association head honchos/coaches/assessors) that the ruck isn't over as the criteria for a ruck ended has not been met, and therefore the SH can't just reach in and grab it. What needs to occur is that bound players are to enter the 'ruck' and ruck past the ball. This effectively means the ruck is won by that side and the SH is free to play the ball? So is that advice totally wrong???

Hmmm - yes, butttttttttttt. Is there a contest for the ball at that point? All the potential contesters are on the ground and out of the game. A scrum half could reach that far in if they were on their feet and there was no contest - why not here when there's no contest?

 

[Davet]

Technically they are correct.

In real life they would be rightly castigated for being over-zealous, jobsworth arses.

The ball is laying there free and clear, and you want to make life difficult - I suspect the only response would be "Jeez, mate - are you one dingo short of a pack?"

 

[menace]

Actually it's a 6-pack short of a slab....but that's by the by.

And it's not me that wants to make it difficult.....my coach's and assessors do and if I don't do as they say...well that just makes me incompetent regardless of what the players and spectators think.:shrug::shrug:

 

[Davet]

Challenge them.

Ask them what the game gains by prohibiting a player from stepping in and picking up the ball, which is laying on the ground in the open with no one on their feet in the vicinity, and starting to play rugby?

 

[ddjamo]

If there are no players left in the ruck, isn't the ball out, e.g., 100% visible from a bird's-eye view?

be careful hanging your hat on the "birds eye" stuff. there are plenty of times the ball is visible via bird eye when the ball is not out. rather think of the ball not in the chalk circle around the ruck mass.

 

[tim White]

A scrum half could reach that far in if they were on their feet and there was no contest - why not here when there's no contest?

:clap:

 

[Reindeer Flotilla]

be careful hanging your hat on the "birds eye" stuff. there are plenty of times the ball is visible via bird eye when the ball is not out. rather think of the ball not in the chalk circle around the ruck mass.

Can you give an example?

 

[Dickie E]

Can you give an example?

Sure. #8 bound in with body/legs at 45 degrees with ball between feet.

 

[menace]

Hmmm - yes, butttttttttttt. Is there a contest for the ball at that point? All the potential contesters are on the ground and out of the game. A scrum half could reach that far in if they were on their feet and there was no contest - why not here when there's no contest?

Fair call Dixie...but I see there being a difference. One situation is when the ruck has already been won and contest over while the other there may not be a ruck winner (although the contest is over). Or are you advocating whichever player grabs the ball (through gate, on feet, etc etc) then their team have just won the ruck?

Not agreeing or disagreeing...just trying to thrash out and navigate the approach you're suggesting.

 

[The Fat]

Interesting thread.
More and more little scenarios being added but could I just suggest that if a ruck had formed, then all players in the ruck end up off their feet with the ball in there somewhere, not having been won by either team. Before another player acting as the SH can go ferreting in there trying to dig the ball out, I would whistle and stop play calling unplayable (ie: unsuccessful end to a maul) and award a scrum to the team going forward or as per the other order of scrum feed as per Law 16. I wouldn't be standing there trying to work out where the offside lines were hoping that someone is eventually going to get the ball to their side and then keep playing.

 

[Pinky]

Interesting thread.
(ie: unsuccessful end to a maul)

Ruck, surely?

 

[The Fat]

Ruck, surely?

Glad someone knows what I meant to write. Doh!!!
Yes, unsuccessful end to a ruck (and I even proof read that before posting).
Thanks Pinky.

 

[Camquin]

The questions I would have would be how did everyone end up off their feet.
Should I have penalised someone for going off their feet and/ or collapsing the ruck.

If everyone spontaneously lost their footing, even though they were endeavouring to stay up - then ruck is over.

If I can see the ball it is out - successful end of ruck. Someone should get on and play it.
If I can't, unsuccessful end of ruck - scrum.

 

[jdeagro]

I think there is room for a lot of little technicalities in this one, with a multitude of potentials for the scenario I outlined. As I don't think it's going to be headlining as a real problem in rugby anytime soon; I do get the pleasure of reading all of your educated officials' input on these intricate situations I let play out in my head.