YC query

[spikeno10]

On Saturday the following situation happened.
Blue scrum within their own 22.
Whistle blown, no signal for penalty or free kick or for offence which caused the whistle to be blown.
Blue SH asked ref what the whistle was for. As he did Red SH gabbed ball and tapped it. Blue SH stopped him. Ref shows Blue SH YC.
Thoughts?

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

On Saturday the following situation happened.
Blue scrum within their own 22.
Whistle blown, no signal for penalty or free kick or for offence which caused the whistle to be blown.
Blue SH asked ref what the whistle was for. As he did Red SH gabbed ball and tapped it. Blue SH stopped him. Ref shows Blue SH YC.
Thoughts?

What level was this?

Based on the information provided sounds like poor primary and secondary signals from referee?

Based on YC, referee must have awarded a PK/FK to red? Why?

Not good for all concerned but maybe the ref is very new?

 

[spikeno10]

Was a first round cup game. Ref being assessed.
I agree PK/FK must have been award but without a mark being given the tap doesn't restart play does it?

 

[Jacko]

Spike - no need for a mark to be made, but obviously the ref should have been clearer about who the PK/FK was against.

 

[crossref]

On Saturday the following situation happened.
Blue scrum within their own 22.
Whistle blown, no signal for penalty or free kick or for offence which caused the whistle to be blown.
Blue SH asked ref what the whistle was for. As he did Red SH gabbed ball and tapped it. Blue SH stopped him. Ref shows Blue SH YC.
Thoughts?

the scrum half of the offending team sometimes pretends he doesn't know which side has been awarded the PK.
It's a ruse to seriously slow down the oppo without attracting a YC. Sometimes it works.

 

[FlipFlop]

Was there a Primary Signal? (i.e. the arm out for FK or PK?)

If so, then trying to take the ball might result in a YC, especially if done close to goal line, etc.

If there has only been a whistle, and nothing else, then the YC is harsh UNLESS.....

.... There is no need to grab the ball, and there have been several flare ups, and teams warned etc. In which case, I can see that grabbing the ball off another player when the play is dead, when they don't know whose ball it is, might result in a card. This might also explain why no other signals - ref not WANTING the play to go quickly, as he has had too many flash points. Wants the scrum to safely "finish", wants to slow it down etc.

What did the ref say when you calmly discussed it over a pint in the bar?

 

[spikeno10]

Sorry, didn't make it clear. The YC was not for grabbing the ball. it was for stopping the player who grabbed it.
The referee did not stay behind so couldn't ask him about it sadly.
Have asked for feedback from the society (assessor) but have been refused that.

 

[crossref]

Sorry, didn't make it clear. The YC was not for grabbing the ball. it was for stopping the player who grabbed it.
The referee did not stay behind so couldn't ask him about it sadly.
Have asked for feedback from the society (assessor) but have been refused that.

red SH grabbed the ball and executed a quick tap PK

the only reason blue would have for obstructing him is that he knew full well it was a PK to red, and therefore the referee was going to play-on.

so I feel his YC was probably justified.
if he was under the impression that it wasa PK to blue he could have done nothing, and let the red SH receive the YC ...

 

[Simon Thomas]

On Saturday the following situation happened.
Blue scrum within their own 22.
Whistle blown, no signal for penalty or free kick or for offence which caused the whistle to be blown.
Blue SH asked ref what the whistle was for. As he did Red SH gabbed ball and tapped it. Blue SH stopped him. Ref shows Blue SH YC.
Thoughts?

At any level poor management and communication by the referee.

Assessor will have had an interesting discussion - and protective approach indicates the way it went.

Poor show by referee not being available for at least some time to discuss such issues with coaches etc.

 

[Phil E]

If the audience don't know what's going on, then the referee is just making life difficult for himself.

 

[Simon Thomas]

the scrum half of the offending team sometimes pretends he doesn't know which side has been awarded the PK.
It's a ruse to seriously slow down the oppo without attracting a YC. Sometimes it works.

as if a #9 would do that ....................................surely just mistaken in thinking it was his penalty :biggrin:

 

[FlipFlop]

Sorry, didn't make it clear. The YC was not for grabbing the ball. it was for stopping the player who grabbed it.
The referee did not stay behind so couldn't ask him about it sadly.

It sounds like the ref indicated somehow who the PK was for. The it is YC for deliberately not 10m. Sounds fair.

As you phone the ref to confirm the game, I'm sure you could call and just ask politely what it was for, and his thinking etc. Explain that the player can't tell you, and you weren't sure from the side lines, and as they left early, you couldn't discuss it with him either. You want to understand from a coaching view point, to prevent it happening again..... (or some such BS )

Don't argue etc - just ask for the refs view.

 

[Browner]

On Saturday the following situation happened.
Blue scrum within their own 22.
Whistle blown, no signal for penalty or free kick or for offence which caused the whistle to be blown.
Blue SH asked ref what the whistle was for. As he did Red SH gabbed ball and tapped it. Blue SH stopped him. Ref shows Blue SH YC.
Thoughts?

It sounds to me like despite the lack of signals to the touchline, the referee had likely communicated his decision to the players closest to him.
Red SH either ....
a] knew the decision was in favour of his side [because a communication had been made by the referee] which your SH 'probably' also heard, but still chanced his arm in the 'critical' zone
...or
b] Red SH gambled and it came off ..... risk v reward - credit to him [scrum half's are indeed sneaky/clever buggers!]

I'm not surprised the assessor won't enlighten you, how ridiculous to even ask, the match is over :nono:.

Last week you had x2 players YC ............. suggestion = spend a bit more time coaching law compliance:biggrin:. With 15 on the pitch you might have turned the 19-8 defeat around !

 

[spikeno10]

I'm not surprised the assessor won't enlighten you, how ridiculous to even ask, the match is over :nono:.

Last week you had x2 players YC ............. suggestion = spend a bit more time coaching law compliance:biggrin:. With 15 on the pitch you might have turned the 19-8 defeat around !

The result won't change but seeing as how we are unaware what the card was for it's a bit difficult to coach law compliance.
The two cards you mentioned from last week we are very aware of.
One was the TV inspired attempted interception (if it works you're a hero if not you get ten minutes), never going to coach them to not try that. The other one was a stone cold card. Hands in the ruck within 10 metres of the line. Overlap in place its a gamble. Do I coach them to let opposition have fast ball in that situation or do we chance it and see.
I have no issue with either of the those cards as they were clearly communicated.
The issue I have is when we don't know what we are looking at.
As you know we were the away team and therefore in this situation had no contact with the ref in confirmation so I have no way of asking the question other than via the society. I would point out it is not to query the decision it is just to understand what it was for. As you say it is worth understanding so we can coach compliance.

 

[crossref]

what you don't know is what the PK was given for.
but you do know what the YC was for -- playing the ball carrier while not 10m away from the mark.

 

[spikeno10]

Fair point.
I'll give up on this one now.

 

[The Fat]

It sounds to me like despite the lack of signals to the touchline, the referee had likely communicated his decision to the players closest to him.
Red SH either ....
a] knew the decision was in favour of his side [because a communication had been made by the referee] which your SH 'probably' also heard, but still chanced his arm in the 'critical' zone
...or
b] Red SH gambled and it came off ..... risk v reward - credit to him [scrum half's are indeed sneaky/clever buggers!]

I'm not surprised the assessor won't enlighten you, how ridiculous to even ask, the match is over :nono:.

Last week you had x2 players YC ............. suggestion = spend a bit more time coaching law compliance:biggrin:. With 15 on the pitch you might have turned the 19-8 defeat around !

Sounds like you have personal knowledge of the team involved from your comments but what is wrong with the coach or captain finding out what a particular decision was for even if the game is over?

Regarding the OP, when the opposition SH took the ball from your SH, where was he standing. Had the scrum completely broken up and had the players moved away from the centre of the scrum or were the two SHs both standing behind the attacking No.8?
The referee doesn't have to make a mark but the quick tap must be taken from the place of the infringement or directly behind it. I'm getting an image in my head of the two SHs standing beside the original scrum for some reason.
Why didn't your captain approach the ref after the try or when the YC was being issued to find out what the original PK/FK was for?

 

[Browner]

Sounds like you have personal knowledge of the team involved from your comments but what is wrong with the coach or captain finding out what a particular decision was for even if the game is over?

Nope...... just Google ! http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/swaffham/s/match-centre-37451/1-745892

 

[Dixie]

red SH grabbed the ball and executed a quick tap PK

the only reason blue would have for obstructing him is that he knew full well it was a PK to red, and therefore the referee was going to play-on.

Really? You feel it is absolutely impossible that the Blue SH, in the absence of a signal, believed the PK was going his way and he was trying to get the ball back so he could take it?

Spike, new refs are often chasing their thoughts, and can't squeeze in their signals due to brain overload. I can't justify it, but I do understand it. If this is L.12-ish, you just got caught up in a ref learning his craft.

 

[crossref]

Dixie, yes I think that's impossible.
If the blue sh genuinely thought the PK had been awarded to him he wouldn't waste time asking the Ref what the penalty was for, he wouldn't care, he would have tapped and run
He knew full well the PK was against his team, that's why he was asking the Ref why. (conveniently slowing down the red pk)