Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

[Marc Wakeham]

You brought him into the issue. The relevance is not there. The question is about the referee's actions.

 

[crossref]

For me the two things we can all take away from this - into our own games - are

1 - restarting time when the restart is going to be a PK - how to do it fairly and equitably (this will apply after an injury as well as a ref intervention)

2 - asking captains to 'go and have a word' - has that become over-used? is it useful, and if so for what? It's a good time to think about about *when* and *why* to do it. For me, I am going to use it less for a while, see what happens.


I actually think PG chose a poor moment for a 'time-off, go and have a word instruction' and that was the root of it. From that moment Wales could see an opportunity and made a plan, a plan that would make PG look foolish (side effect) as well as England (intended victim).

(Of course Biggar knew what he was doing. Biggar is an excellent, clever player!)

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I disagree. Had PG managed it properly then there would have been no issue. If it is time for the "Captain have a word with your players" because of player behaviours then it is time.

 

[DocY]

2 - asking captains to 'go and have a word' - has that become over-used? is it useful, and if so for what? It's a good time to think about about *when* and *why* to do it. For me, I am going to use it less for a while, see what happens.

I think it has become over used - particularly at the top level. In this case, I don't see what was to gain by asking Farrell to speak to his team. They were just giving away too many assorted penalties so a simple "Captain, that's too many penalties" would be perfectly sufficient (hell, if England were paying attention they'd have guessed what the ref was saying!) Hence my thinking something may have been lost in translation.

The only time I'd ask a captain to speak to his team is if they'd been giving away systematic penalties and I thought an explanation of why I was giving the penalties was needed. But at higher levels than I reffed at I'd expect the players to know the laws and not need explanation!

 

[didds]

The problem was not the Time off and chat. The problem is with how PG managed it.

Yes. I agree.

I was however responding to CR's suggestion as to how HE will handle "have a chat" moments when he refs

 

[pedr]

What, precisely, do we think PG should have done after Biggar asked him to let them know when it was going to be time on? I imagine there are a number of possibilities - what do we think he wishes he'd done?

 

[DocY]

What, precisely, do we think PG should have done after Biggar asked him to let them know when it was going to be time on? I imagine there are a number of possibilities - what do we think he wishes he'd done?

The imprecise answer would be "give England enough time". The precise answer would put a number of seconds on that! But whatever number that is, I reckon it'd be less than 9 (as per the Squidge Rugby video)

Maybe run over to the English huddle, tell them he's going to put time back on, jog back to Biggar and blow his whistle. TBH it looks like he started doing that, but they were breaking up anyway, so he walked back to Biggar.

 

[crossref]

What, precisely, do we think PG should have done after Biggar asked him to let them know when it was going to be time on? I imagine there are a number of possibilities - what do we think he wishes he'd done?

in the old days
1 - first whistle = time on
2 - pause to make sure water carriers collect bottles etc, and to give England a reasonable time to stop huddle (couple of seconds?)
3 - make mark and PK whistle = PK awarded - and they can go instantly ( from the mark)

that's gone out of fashion (and q from Phil above about how widespread that was)

so nowadays it is
1 - make sure England, and water carriers/physios are aware that time is about to go on (gestures, shout, wave whatever)
2 - pause to make sure water carriers collect bottles etc, and to give England a reasonable time to stop huddle (couple of seconds?)
3 - blow whistle for time on and Wales are instantly free to take the PK from where they are standing (don't bother to make new mark)

 

[Pedro]

What, precisely, do we think PG should have done after Biggar asked him to let them know when it was going to be time on? I imagine there are a number of possibilities - what do we think he wishes he'd done?

Has anyone seen anything where PG says he doesn’t stand by what he did in this incident. Other than the misleading telegraph headline! I can’t find any actual quotes of him actually saying he believes he made a mistake in this incident.

 

[crossref]

Has anyone seen anything where PG says he doesn’t stand by what he did in this incident. Other than the misleading telegraph headline! I can’t find any actual quotes of him actually saying he believes he made a mistake in this incident.

joel jutge did an interview in the french press, where reported the PG thought it was a mistake --- make of that what you will


https://www.midi-olympique.fr/2021/03/01/jutge-pascal-gauzere-a-reconnu-ses-erreurs-9401248.php
(PAYWALL)

 

[OB..]

joel jutge did an interview in the french press, where reported the PG thought it was a mistake --- make of that what you will


https://www.midi-olympique.fr/2021/03/01/jutge-pascal-gauzere-a-reconnu-ses-erreurs-9401248.php
(PAYWALL)

Here's the quote

Critiqué par les Anglais après deux décisions contestables lors de la première mi-temps face au pays de Galles, Pascal Gaüzère a fait un mea culpa auprès du patron des arbitres Joël Jutge, après avoir revisionné les images dimanche matin.

 

[thepercy]

The more I think about it, the first management mistake was allowing the water carriers onto the field.

"Please go away Water Carriers, this is not a time to bring water on"

 

[crossref]

These are linked though, water carriers came on because time was off.. time was off because OF had been asked to have a word ..

 

[Dickie E]

The more I think about it, the first management mistake was allowing the water carriers onto the field.

"Please go away Water Carriers, this is not a time to bring water on"

There is a general rule that water carriers can only come on at time off so they grab that opportunity whenever it presents itself. In fact, the sideline officials probably told them they could go on as soon as they heard the "time off" call.

 

[Balones]

Interesting that in the Ire/Eng today in the 48th minute approx on game clock the Irish were denied a try because a juggle and knock back was deemed a knock-on. Perhaps giving more credence to the Nigel Owen video?

 

[Pedro]

I thought the same - but the knock on was actually given against green 17- the player behind him who the ball bounced forward off as it went backwards from green 4 ( or 5) after the juggle.

 

[Balones]

I thought the same - but the knock on was actually given against green 17- the player behind him who the ball bounced forward off as it went backwards from green 4 ( or 5) after the juggle.

That’s what I thought but that doesn’t appear to be what the referee actually said.

 

[chbg]

That’s what I thought but that doesn’t appear to be what the referee actually said.

It was what the TMO stated.

 

[Flish]

I tell the 9, or whoever that I’ll remake the mark and then you can go. Then whistle, arm out, maybe secondary signals and make mark - allows me to create a little breathing room if needed between whistle and mark

 

[KoolFork]

I tell the 9, or whoever that I’ll remake the mark and then you can go. Then whistle, arm out, maybe secondary signals and make mark - allows me to create a little breathing room if needed between whistle and mark

This thread has developed a life of its own. However, with regards to penalties (and I recognise here that you may only be talking about the time off/time on scenario), there is no need as far as I know for a referee to make a physical mark, although I agree it is very common. The mark for a penalty is simply the correct place from which the penalty should be taken. Mnny attempts at quick penalties are oly called back because the players seem unaware of the law, eg penalties to be taken on the 15m line.