[Law] Acceptable frustration or sending off?

[Zebra1922]

Couple of quotes from my match today, would you consider these acceptable frustration from losing teams or tipping into RC territory for implying or saying you are biased?

1. (Following a try after defender tackled a break near the goal line and supporting players scored - I was not over the moon with the final few words.....)
"They are pulling me in at the tackle every time, you're allowing them to do it and they are laughing at you for it"

2. General comment on scrums (not after a scrum, this was after another opposition try - seems fairly mild but to me this is a direct accusation of bias)
"Whenever we offend in the scrum you give a penalty, whenever they do the same thing you don't give anything"

Thoughts and what, if any, action would you take?

 

[mcroker]

For me that is above the threshold to ignore...

Chat with the captain on first instance
PK next and escalate from there

 

[Marc Wakeham]

A word and then 10 mins to have a think.

 

[Zebra1922]

They were said in the opposite order. The first one I gave a warning to be careful, that I don’t consider it banter. The second one was more aggressive so restart with a penalty, but I didn’t give any cards.

i wonder if it’s thecway I referee, I don’t like being over authoritative but that means players take more and more liberties with their running commentaries in the game. Although there’s a nearly 100% correlation between those who complain or imply bias and the side losing :hap:

 

[Phil E]

It’s not a popularity contest.
Be firm and clear in your decision.
Stamp on any dissent early so they know where they stand.
If it persists give them 10 minutes to think about their language.
If you ignore it or aren’t firm enough then it will only get worse.

However.....post match have a think about what he said...did he have a fair point?
That doesn’t allow him to say it but it moiety explain his frustration.
Only you will know the answer to this so be honest with yourself.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

They were said in the opposite order. The first one I gave a warning to be careful, that I don’t consider it banter. The second one was more aggressive so restart with a penalty, but I didn’t give any cards.

i wonder if it’s thecway I referee, I don’t like being over authoritative but that means players take more and more liberties with their running commentaries in the game. Although there’s a nearly 100% correlation between those who complain or imply bias and the side losing :hap:

Ok (although it would help with context if thigs were in order):

FIRST TIME a word then the SECOND TIME a card. AS Phil said, reflect afterwards as the players may have a point. However, YOU are the SOLE JUDGE etc... You are on your own you can't see everything and you can't ping what you do not see.

 

[VM75]

One-eyed moaners need discouraging, so what Phil said.

 

[Zebra1922]

I’ve got no worries about the quality of my refereeing. I make mistakes but I am competent for the level I referee at. I am scrupulously fair and react negatively to any hints of bias, hence my questions about these comments. Post match reflection I feel I was not harsh enough, but given my sensitivity to any hint of bias I wanted others options and the sort of things you hear and allow (or penalize).

 

[Marc Wakeham]

You've answered your own question thus, "I feel I was not harsh enough"

Moving forward. What was your positioning like? If it is perceived that you are missing little tugs. Are you getting into the best positions? Only you can answer that.

Your response to phil's point about reflection: "I’ve got no worries about the quality of my refereeing. I make mistakes but I am competent for the level I referee at." is interestingly "defensive". Every game should include a bit of post match reflection. IF you are missing stuff, for whatever reason you may not be aware of it. Replay the game over in your head. It is possible that relection may throw up the odd point that flew past in the heat of the battle.

One thing I find useful, doing a lot of BUCS games, is to ask for a copy of the video. Some times it is sobering but on other occasions it backs up your thoughts. Don't be afraid of reviewing your games.

 

[Rich_NL]

Second the film tip... watching games I've reffed has been probably the single most educational thing I've done.

 

[crossref]

I think it's possible, and sometimes wise , to turn a deaf ear to an accusation of incompetence. But you cannot ignore accusationa of bias

 

[Zebra1922]

You've answered your own question thus, "I feel I was not harsh enough"

Moving forward. What was your positioning like? If it is perceived that you are missing little tugs. Are you getting into the best positions? Only you can answer that.

Your response to phil's point about reflection: "I’ve got no worries about the quality of my refereeing. I make mistakes but I am competent for the level I referee at." is interestingly "defensive". Every game should include a bit of post match reflection. IF you are missing stuff, for whatever reason you may not be aware of it. Replay the game over in your head. It is possible that relection may throw up the odd point that flew past in the heat of the battle.

One thing I find useful, doing a lot of BUCS games, is to ask for a copy of the video. Some times it is sobering but on other occasions it backs up your thoughts. Don't be afraid of reviewing your games.

i don’t mean to be ‘defensive’. I do miss things, we all do. On occasion my positioning is not great, or my reaction time as the ball moves is a little slow, but I’m pleased with my development over the last 12 months, helped a lot by improving fitness. I now wear a GoPro on a chest harness, not perfect as it does not follow my eyes, but it does allow me to review games and see areas for improvement.

and yes sometimes it does validate you, and you have to resist that email to the coach who ranted at you going “ner ner” ?

 

[Zebra1922]

I think it's possible, and sometimes wise , to turn a deaf ear to an accusation of incompetence. But you cannot ignore accusationa of bias

Agreed, incompetence I have no problem with, tends to be one eyed comments from people who were in an much worse position that I was to see any offence. It’s just that line between a moan and a bias accusation I was struggling with.

On a wider note, i believe Unions need to take more action in educating and reinforcing their Code of Conducts. Players behaviour is driven from coaches and the captain, get them on board and a lot of the dissent problem goes away.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

i don’t mean to be ‘defensive’. I do miss things, we all do. On occasion my positioning is not great, or my reaction time as the ball moves is a little slow, but I’m pleased with my development over the last 12 months, helped a lot by improving fitness. I now wear a GoPro on a chest harness, not perfect as it does not follow my eyes, but it does allow me to review games and see areas for improvement.

and yes sometimes it does validate you, and you have to resist that email to the coach who ranted at you going “ner ner” 

Have you checked if you are allowed to wear the GoPro. We have been told it is a NO GO. Obviously your union may differ.

Also our point about watching video. Shows where you are in realtion to the gme not what your are seeing. It will show if you taking good lines etc. Please try it.

I doubt it validates much. It may show that you did not see an offence. Not that your line / position may be poor.. Certainly don't send it to a coach to "prove a point" You are tight there. He might havre a video that shows something worse!At best you are going to create an issue next time you go there.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I think it's possible, and sometimes wise , to turn a deaf ear to an accusation of incompetence. But you cannot ignore accusationa of bias

Agree. Doubt my competence / knowledge. Do not ever question my integrity.

 

[Zebra1922]

Have you checked if you are allowed to wear the GoPro. We have been told it is a NO GO. Obviously your union may differ.

Also our point about watching video. Shows where you are in realtion to the gme not what your are seeing. It will show if you taking good lines etc. Please try it.

I doubt it validates much. It may show that you did not see an offence. Not that your line / position may be poor.. Certainly don't send it to a coach to "prove a point" You are tight there. He might havre a video that shows something worse!At best you are going to create an issue next time you go there.

Don’t worry, I would never send a ner ner video. It’s just nice sometimes to have hard evidence you were right after coaches and players have ranted at you about how wrong you were (when they were 50m further away than you were!)

re. Wearing the GoPro, I’ve not asked my Society or Union, but then no one has ever asked me if they can video games and there is usually at least one tripod at every game I referee.

 

[menace]

Have you checked if you are allowed to wear the GoPro. We have been told it is a NO GO. Obviously your union may differ.

.

Interesting. What's their basis of saying NO GO To GOPRO??

 

[didds]

re. Wearing the GoPro, I’ve not asked my Society or Union, but then no one has ever asked me if they can video games and there is usually at least one tripod at every game I referee.

I would imagine the point here is that theer is no tripod on the pitch for anybody to make contact with.

didds

 

[crossref]

Interesting. What's their basis of saying NO GO To GOPRO??

Safety ?

 

[DocY]

As others have said, you've already answered your own question about whether you were harsh enough! I think we'll all agree that there's a big difference between accusations of incompetence and accusations of bias.

A couple of things I'd say that might be helpful: hopefully a player (respectfully) asked if you wouldn't mind looking out for them pulling them into the tackle earlier in the game, at which point I'd say "OK, I'll keep an eye on them" (even if you don't). That often placates them, and if they keep complaining you can decisively tell them that you're happy with what you're seeing and, if necessary, explain why.

Dissent after a try - from a game management perspective I was always more tempted to give a YC, rather than just restart with a penalty. It's a much more immediate reinforcement than, effectively waiting until the conversion has been taken, running back to half way, then penalising them. Particularly for dissent I always felt the punishment, whatever it was, was more effective if it was immediate.