[Law] Acceptable frustration or sending off?

[Marc Wakeham]

I would imagine the point here is that theer is no tripod on the pitch for anybody to make contact with.

didds

Indeed.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Safety ?

Indeed you are correct.

The union found referees were wearing such items without reference and told us quite clearly it was to stop. Of course other unions may take a different view. Always best to send that email or make that call.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

re. Wearing the GoPro, I’ve not asked my Society or Union, but then no one has ever asked me if they can video games and there is usually at least one tripod at every game I referee.

Missing two points.

1: how many tripods are on the FoP?

2: Child protection issues affect filming. As a adult you are not protected by such things.

 

[Flish]

I used to wear one (with parental consent from both side) for minis games that I coached, primary purpose was to let the kids watch their game, they loved it. However, it become more and more frequent that a parent had issues with it - they could never quite communicate what those issues where, they just felt it was wrong in some way, so I'd never argue, as much a social reflection I expect, but soon wasn't worth doing it.

The only time I've considered it since then, sadly, has been for the behaviour off pitch, again kids games :-(

 

[crossref]

I was asked to wear one once, by parents.
I declined.

 

[menace]

Missing two points.

1: how many tripods are on the FoP?

2: Child protection issues affect filming. As a adult you are not protected by such things.

And there it is...PC gone mad.

Safety I get...to an extent. A gopro under your jersey is no more dangerous to players than comms radio systems??..and even the referees watch could be regarded more dangerous with flailing ref hand signals!!

As for "child protection affecting filmimg" I dont claim to know your laws over there...but over here it is not illegal to photograph or video anyone in public playing sport (unless they are inappropriate images). And you dont need permission.
I get a 300mm zoom lens could look suspicious...but a gopro??pfffft!

Not that I use a gopro (but i have before) but I wouldn't be asking anyone if I could use it (unless the was a rule in place)..

I think your union has overreacted out of fear mongering...but again I concede i don't your criminal.laws on this issue.

 

[Flish]

In the UK, it is not illegal to photograph / film someone in a public space (not that prevents parents going nuts if you try to take photos of your own kids at the play park). Many Rugby pitches are not 'public spaces' though.

Consent wise we get our parents to sign photographic consent forms when kids join the club, there also tend to be specific supplementary forms that go out to other clubs when we hold a festival that might include press coverage. All that still doesn't stop parents not being happy about it, or sadly quite common scenarios where you'll have a child in foster care or some other such where the publication of images on social media would cause issues. Same reason why you can't take pics at most school shows / nativities any more :-(

Broadly, it's a lot of effort, which is sad.

 

[Decorily]

..and even the referees watch could be regarded more dangerous with flailing ref hand

Now that you mention it.....
I did actually whack a 9 in the face once as I awarded a penalty to his team at a scrum. Back of the hand with force into the snout!!
Everyone saw the funny side of it....even the 9 himself (after his eyes stopped watering)
Time off and profuse apologies and embarrassment on my behalf! !

 

[Dan_A]

The junior squad that I used to manage had 4 or 5 boys doing GCSE Sports (school exams at 16yrs old). They all had rugby as one of their sport options and had to get video of them playing or training as part of their coursework. I was told to have everyone either sign a video release form or not take part. We ended up doing this in training as it was way too hard to have both teams in a match all have signed forms.

Such a shame as we'd love to video a game or two, even if it was just to do a pizza and match viewing session, rather than real detailed analysis.

 

[RedCapRef]

I used to video (or get someone to) all my teams games from U14 onward, always asked the opposition coach and the ref if there was a problem, nearly always no and could they have a copy please. Always offered a copy to the ref (I found it really useful when I watched myself) and always amazed when they said no thanks. Most did and they were nearly always those we considered the better ones.
We had one occasion where there was a child who could not be photographed.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I understand, but have not seen it written down, that if you have players under 18, their parents must sign an agreement to filming. It is not the call of the coaching staff. A clause can easily be inserted into the membership of "little johnny" with a "delete if you don't give permission" / Tick if you give permission" option oncluded

Personally I can't see the problem. We are all captured on CCTV in towns every day.

 

[crossref]

I think there are some very glib dismissals of the problem here. It's a complex problem and anyone who simply can't see any issue should do some research to understand it better. There is a lot of material on the web. Here's a starting point https://thecpsu.org.uk/help-advice/topics/photography/

And's not all about paedophiles - there are many, many children living in complex family arrangements for whom it might be problematic to have their whereabouts every Sunday potentially made known.

From a reffing point of view : is there any reason why you specifically want to film children playing ? Assuming there isn't - why not leave the camera at home on Sundays and confine your filming to adult games. Much simpler.

 

[didds]

I understand, but have not seen it written down, that if you have players under 18, their parents

must sign an agreement to filming.

we have a blanket "acceptance is the baseline. If you object please contact the club in writing to your request for your child not to be photographed/videoed"

Certainly when I was alst involved a couple of years ago we'd never had an objection, FWTW.

As for "under 18" - here in England at leats 17 year olds can play senior rugby...

And FWIW and IANAL, its my understanding that there is NO "you cannot film/photograph" children laws in england and wales. The baseline there being if you are in a public place you can be. And again AIUI short of you being behind locked and walled premises, an open rugby pitch adjacent to public paths etc is "public" and is nalso "[public" for the purposes fo anybody that is "entitled" to be present on what may be co0nsidered private premises eg another parent.happy to be shown I am wrong

didds

 

[DocY]

its my understanding that there is NO "you cannot film/photograph" children laws in england and wales.

The term is "reasonable expectation of privacy", which is hard to argue when a crowd is watching you!

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Found this this morning.

There is no law against photographing or filming children, provided the images are decent in nature. It is still wise to obtain permission, if possible from the parents. When you ask for permission to film children it can often be useful to keep the camera running when that permission is granted. You then have a record, in the event that your filming is challenged again later. Schools, which are private premises, do usually forbid it. So be sensible. If your filming upsets someone try to calm the situation and, if necessary, stop. Be careful about filming in "prohibited places" without permission. Typical prohibited places include military establishments, aircraft and ships, most airports, naval dockyards and many telecommunications centres. You may be challenged by security forces. Once again a polite explanation of what you are doing and why may well resolve the situation, but you may be told to stop.

Fair and common sense.

 

[crossref]

As a ref , common sense is to leave you camera at home on Sundays and film your adult games instead

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Check with your union first!

 

[mcroker]

Now that you mention it.....
I did actually whack a 9 in the face

+1, exacerbated by the huge watch I managed to accidentally purchase. I thought I had ordered a large watch, what arrived was a small carriage clock.

Would have been slightly less embarrassing it the player wasn’t an U11 :s

 

[beckett50]

re. Wearing the GoPro, I’ve not asked my Society or Union, but then no one has ever asked me if they can video games and there is usually at least one tripod at every game I referee.

So why not ask the club to either send you a copy of the DVD or a link to the video of the match? You will also get a much better view of the game. Plus if they have a comms system that can be linked to the camera system you will be able to hear your comments, thoughts, chat, white noise.

 

[Arabcheif]

I'm just a player and I'm not sure what they mean by "Pulling me in at the tackle." Usually in these threads there's a point of quoting the appropriate Law that covers any potential offence. My wonder would be if the scoring team that "pulling them in" are actually laugh at the ref, this implies that their aware they're getting away with something that's wrong. If this is so then the complainer may have a point.

In the 2nd one if there's a difference, then why not just tell the player what the differences are or tell him that you aren't seeing any infringements.

Most of my own frustrations are when this happens in matches I play in. If the refs simply advises that he didn't see it but would look out for it or explained what the differences were then that would do a lot to satisfy my frustrations. I, like most other players only want to understand why 2 seemingly identical incidents are treated differently. If the refs not seen the offence fair enough but if he has and penalises one team and not the other for the same thing, surely this is bias. It might not be intentional and I get that but it's still bias. Surely in that case it's against the spirit of the game too.

To go back to the OP, I don't think there was anything wrong with asking the question, as long as it was said in an abusive/aggressive tone and they didn't swear.