Charity Game with scrums and new laws!

[Phil E]

At long last I have a charity game on Saturday with scrums and new laws (50/22 etc).
There are also two Fijian Internationals playing!
Luckily I have AR's and comm's to help me.
Really looking forward to it.

 

[Dickie E]

Go well, Phil.

I'll be interested in your thoughts on 50/22. By all accounts, you (& ARs) will need to concentrate on where kick is taken including how the ball got into the kicker's half.

 

[Phil E]

Go well, Phil.

I'll be interested in your thoughts on 50/22. By all accounts, you (& ARs) will need to concentrate on where kick is taken including how the ball got into the kicker's half.

Yes, that's the bit that's going to take some observation and vocal prompts.
I have enough trouble remembering to vocalise taken back into the 22, now I also have to do it for the half way line!

 

[tim White]

Please only vocalise 'taken back' IF the ball is kicked -the kicker should know the laws without you coaching him.

 

[crossref]

Please only vocalise 'taken back' IF the ball is kicked -the kicker should know the laws without you coaching him.

that's an interesting comment - as I often hear refs shout that as it's taken back, including the elite ones.

so without really thinking about it, I do the same -- which effectively warns them not to kick.


So what is generally recognised as best practice/ Don't think I have ever really heard any disuccion about that before

 

[didds]

and if you are going to call it you may need twop different calls to differentiate between taken back into 22 = no gain in ground and taken back into own half = no throw in for a kick to touch inside oppo 22.

didds

 

[Phil E]

The vocalisation is more a prompt for me than the players.

If I shout taken back and they subsequently kick, my brain remembers that I shouted better than if I hadn't said anything.

It's an audible trigger.

 

[Balones]

Interesting discussion.
I expect a referee to vocalise “inside” or “outside” early to the scrum-half (and possibly outside half if he is within hearing distance) if there is any doubt about positioning and then expect them to act accordingly. The call of ‘taken back’ is primarily used to inform the ARs so that they can act accordingly. It is only secondary information to the players.

 

[crossref]

Interesting discussion.
I expect a referee to vocalise “inside” or “outside” early to the scrum-half (and possibly outside half if he is within hearing distance) if there is any doubt about positioning and then expect them to act accordingly. The call of ‘taken back’ is primarily used to inform the ARs so that they can act accordingly. It is only secondary information to the players.

so if you didn't have ARs, would you say nothing?

 

[OB..]

Taken back informs ALL players. The ball may come to someone who was not in a position to see it for himself.

 

[smeagol]

so if you didn't have ARs, would you say nothing?

Last night, USAR had a webinar featuring Angus Gardner as a special guest, and when discussing the "brought back" similarities, it was mentioned that this should be verbalized. Given that the webinar was aimed at everyone, my understanding was that it should be verbalized every time.

I don't know when it will be up, but the webinar will be posted to YT at some point.

 

[Balones]

so if you didn't have ARs, would you say nothing?

At lower levels of the community game I always tell referees to communicate in whatever way they think fit to assist their control of the game. This can vary between games and even during games. I am looking at appropriate amounts at appropriate times.

The point I’m making is that if you you are saying ‘carried back’ after the action has taken place then you’ve left it a bit late because players will be committed to their action. (Probably.) I expect a referees to communicate earlier. Therefore if a referee shouts ‘carried back’ it has more benefit to AR’s (if you have them and in contact). If it can benefit the players as well then all well and good. Our professional colleagues are expected to call it every time. At this level players are more capable of changing their actions, may not hear an ‘inside’ or ‘out’ call because of crowd noise so could pass instead of kick.
Quite often you will hear the scrum half ask if it is ‘in’ or ‘out’ anyway. If he/she doesn’t then make it clear.

 

[crossref]

This is a great discussion, with lots to think about

 

[Dickie E]

Here's what I do:
1. if its a set piece (lineout or scrum) I'll tell SH if we are inside or outside 22. I won't communicate anything further
2. if its general play, ruck or maul, I'll call 'taken back' as ball crosses 22 unless it is obvious that a kick isn't likely (ie ball is passed to a forward pod for a rumble upfield)

There is a danger to all this. If, for whatever reason, you don't do it on one occasion you'll get blamed if it goes wrong for a team.

 

[lawsons]

I only shout this if it is in doubt ie scrum/line/ruck is on the line. Otherwise I expect them to pay attention and know the law and the position. If the ruck is clearly outside and they pass it back into the 22, I don’t see it as my role to prevent them making tactical errors. The 50:22 rule applies like the 22 with a phase not position. Do you tell them when they’ve had a phase? Do you tell them when the ball is kicked into in goal “no 22 if grounded”. Do you tell them after a free kick when they can drop a goal? I get that we should try and prevent unnecessary offences, but telling them basic things to prevent them making basic errors, mainly tactical, well tough. Pay attention. I agree with the previous comments, if you cannot do this every time consistently you will be caught out on the time you forget.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I can't see the point of telling players taken back if a 50/22 is attempted.
Just wait for the outcome and if they make touch give the line accordingly

 

[Balones]

Here's what I do:
1. if its a set piece (lineout or scrum) I'll tell SH if we are inside or outside 22. I won't communicate anything further
2. if its general play, ruck or maul, I'll call 'taken back' as ball crosses 22 unless it is obvious that a kick isn't likely (ie ball is passed to a forward pod for a rumble upfield)

There is a danger to all this. If, for whatever reason, you don't do it on one occasion you'll get blamed if it goes wrong for a team.

I’d like this if we had an appropriate button.

 

[Camquin]

CTrainor, in that case why tell them if they have carried back into the 22? Let them kick it out on the full and give the throw on the line.
Surely the communication is there to ensure everyone one - incuding you - knows what you are thinking.

 

[SimonSmith]

Here's what I do:
1. if its a set piece (lineout or scrum) I'll tell SH if we are inside or outside 22. I won't communicate anything further
2. if its general play, ruck or maul, I'll call 'taken back' as ball crosses 22 unless it is obvious that a kick isn't likely (ie ball is passed to a forward pod for a rumble upfield)

There is a danger to all this. If, for whatever reason, you don't do it on one occasion you'll get blamed if it goes wrong for a team.

My only addition to this is to say it in case I think my AR may be unsighted as to what has just happened and he needs a reference point in order to mark touch appropriately,

 

[tim White]

The problem for me if you call "Taken Back" is that you are giving a possible advantage of avoiding an error to the defending team -to the disadvantage of the attacking team.

Doesn't sit well with attacking players, doesn't sit well with me. By calling it throughout the game for consistency still doesn't make it right.