[Scrum] Confused about these 2 scrum laws. Help please !

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
496
Post Likes
54
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Law 20.12 (b) - Offside for scrum-halves.
When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that team is offside
if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum.
If the scrum half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.

Hang on, as soon as he's put the ball in he's offside ?
He'd better move damn quick as soon as he's released the ball then !?
But let's go on to read the next paragraph...

20.12 (c)
When a team has won the ball in a scrum,
the scrum half of the opposing team is offside
if that scrum half steps in front of the ball
with either foot while the ball is still in the scrum.
This scrum-half may not move into the space between the
flanker and No. 8 when following the ball through the scrum.

Hang on ! Is it 1 foot or both feet now ?
I'm confused. Help !
 

woody


Referees in America
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
249
Post Likes
0
For 20.12b, it's immaterial about being offside when the ball is put in. When the scrum half is going to play the ball or the ball comes out, only one foot can be in front. This applies to the scrum half of the team with the ball. In particular, the scrum half can't stand in front of the ball, creating a screen for the 8-man to pick.

20.12c is for the scrum half of the team without the ball. Both feet need to be behind the ball.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
3,330
Post Likes
536
Current Referee grade:
Level 3
Law 20.12 (b) - Offside for scrum-halves.
When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that team is offside
if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum.
If the scrum half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.

Hang on, as soon as he's put the ball in he's offside ?
He'd better move damn quick as soon as he's released the ball then !?
But let's go on to read the next paragraph...

20.12 (c)
When a team has won the ball in a scrum,
the scrum half of the opposing team is offside
if that scrum half steps in front of the ball
with either foot while the ball is still in the scrum.
This scrum-half may not move into the space between the
flanker and No. 8 when following the ball through the scrum.

Hang on ! Is it 1 foot or both feet now ?
I'm confused. Help !

The underlined bits show that the laws are referring to two different people so no issue there.

The second issue, for me, is a fundumental missunderstanding about offside that your post implies.

Let's take a quick look at another law for some context:

Law 11
DEFINITIONS
At the start of a game all players are onside. As the match progresses players may
find themselves in an offside position. Such players are then liable to be penalised
until they become onside again.

In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is
carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.
Offside means that a player is temporarily out of the game. Such players are liable
to be penalised if they take part in the game.
In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of a team-mate or by
an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the
offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to
move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.


And

11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.


I know that Law 11 refers to general play but I am talking about the principle of offside. Rugy laws acknowledge that people become offside as a natural part of the game. The laws therefore allow such a player to get back on side (IN A REASONABLE TIME).

So applying the logic of law 11 to law 20.12 (b)

Yes the putting in SH is in an offside position the moment the ball is hooked (won). The law requires him to move into an onside position promptly. Any referee daft enough to ping the 9 for being "offside" for that micro-second is completely at odds with the concept of "feel for the game".
 

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
496
Post Likes
54
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Thanks for that. I was being stupid. Am I right that the law has changed on that last season the oppo SH could put 1 foot in front of the ball and now he must keep both feet behind the whole of the ball?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
3,330
Post Likes
536
Current Referee grade:
Level 3
Nope nothing changed.
 

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
496
Post Likes
54
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Really? I was pretty sure recently that opposing no 9 s had to keep only 1 foot behind the ball. Also last season there was nothing about pocket behind the flanker? Or is my law book way old
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,280
Post Likes
264
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
No change in terms of 1foot/2feet laws... While it sounds complicated on paper for once it is pretty obvious and practical in practice!!
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
3,330
Post Likes
536
Current Referee grade:
Level 3
The pocket is new. Although many refs insisted on it before.


The feet law is not. Check your old law books. Certainly the non winning sh could not put either foot in front of the ball back in 2003 I've just checked that one.
 

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
496
Post Likes
54
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Thanks Pegleg !
Yes I can see now. No excuse but the way the (old) law book was laid out, led my eyes to clause(b) and apply it as though (c). Surprised I havent been pulled up on that one before. It may be that a lot of no 9's arent sure of the laws either then :)
Who'd a though it ?
 

Christy


Referees in Ireland
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
527
Post Likes
60
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
If a penalty at scrum , for front row standing / collapsing /.
Although scrum half cant take a quick tap & go untill ref happy , players are all safe .
Where would you advise ref makes mark .
Would you go to rear of scrum to the nr 8 posotion , of team you are awarding scrum to ...
If scrum half decides to take penalty & he standing where he originally stood , would you simplyfy things and let that spot be the mark ., any guidance here for me ,,
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,968
Post Likes
1,829
If a penalty at scrum , for front row standing / collapsing /.
Although scrum half cant take a quick tap & go untill ref happy , players are all safe .
Where would you advise ref makes mark .
Would you go to rear of scrum to the nr 8 posotion , of team you are awarding scrum to ...
If scrum half decides to take penalty & he standing where he originally stood , would you simplyfy things and let that spot be the mark ., any guidance here for me ,,
In this situation most clubs expect the scrum half to throw the ball to the #8 for the quick tap because he is legitimately behind the formal mark (centre of the scrum). It seems too big an advantage to allow the player with the ball already in his hands to take a quick tap while the scrum is still down, even though he may be "near" the mark.If he does it, stop him and let him take it from the correct place. Also advise him of your thinking, so next time he passes back to a suitably positioned team mate.
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,352
Solutions
1
Post Likes
336
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
It may be that a lot of no 9's arent sure of the laws either then :)
Who'd a though it ?

ALL No 9s are sure of the Laws. Not many know them correctly though. :D
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,352
Solutions
1
Post Likes
336
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
If a penalty at scrum , for front row standing / collapsing /.
Although scrum half cant take a quick tap & go untill ref happy , players are all safe .
Where would you advise ref makes mark .
Would you go to rear of scrum to the nr 8 posotion , of team you are awarding scrum to ...
If scrum half decides to take penalty & he standing where he originally stood , would you simplyfy things and let that spot be the mark ., any guidance here for me ,,

The mark is at the point of callapse i.e. middle of the front row. Hence the SH's normal position is not close enough. But a PK can be taken anywhere on a line through and behind the mark; thus the No 8 is in a legitimate position. Don't put the mark at the back of the scrum.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,652
Post Likes
1,718
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
AFAICT the Law was different in 1996. Offside was either foot in front of the ball for both halfbacks.

[LAWS]LAW 21: OFFSIDE
(2) A player is offside if he, being the player of either team who puts the ball in the scrummage, remains or places either foot in front of the ball while it is in the scrummage.

(3) A player is offside if he, being the immediate opponent of the player putting in the ball, takes up a position on or moves to the opposite side of the scrummage in front of the offside line.[/LAWS]NOTE: The offside line referred to in (3) is the hindmost foot offside line

I'm guessing that this Law was changed in the 2000/01 rewrite
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,772
Post Likes
338
Somewhat to my surprise, it was actually changed in 1997.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for the change was that someone noticed that several SH's when using a spin pass would put the forward foot marginally ahead of the ball (which was still in the scrum) in preparation for distribution.
 

Blackberry


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,101
Post Likes
185
Here's a weird one, can someone set me straight.

If the opposing scrum half moves to the other side of the scrum he must stay onside, the onside line being described as the hindmost foot.... but the diagram seems to show the offside line as going through the middle of the scrum. http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=20.12

Any ideas?
 

Blackberry


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,101
Post Likes
185
Thanks didds, that looked to me (at first sight) as going more through the middle, but your interpretation is spot on. Thanks for that.
 

Thunderhorse1986


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
226
Post Likes
0
If a penalty at scrum , for front row standing / collapsing /.
Although scrum half cant take a quick tap & go untill ref happy , players are all safe .
Where would you advise ref makes mark .
Would you go to rear of scrum to the nr 8 posotion , of team you are awarding scrum to ...
If scrum half decides to take penalty & he standing where he originally stood , would you simplyfy things and let that spot be the mark ., any guidance here for me ,,

Law reference for penalising someone for "standing up" please?
 
Top