ebola virus & haka. Why is there no vaccine?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,682
Post Likes
1,768
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
What I find interesting is the differing reactions of the aboriginal inhabitants of NZ, West Island and the USA.

Correct me if I'm wrong, USAans, but my impression from all the recent hoopla about the use of the war-bonnet by non-Native Americans, is that if a USA team came onto the pitch wearing war-bonnets as an expression of their cultural heritage, the Native American communities would regard it as extremely disrespectful and as an appropriation of their culture by the immigrant (since the 1400s) community. Ditto (at least for come communities) a Wallaby team performing on and to the didgeridoo (and particularly if it's a ladies team). Yet an immigrant not born in NZ (I believe I've seen you say, Ian, that you weren't born in NZ) is nevertheless quite comfortable with considering the haka as part of his own personal cultural heritage.

I grew up to respect the indigenous traditions of this country. It was taught at school, and since I've have lived here for the last 54 out of my 58 years, the fact that I was born in England is not really relevant to this.

However the other interesting thing you bring up is the difference between the attitudes of USA Native Americans, Australia Aboriginals and NZ Maori. As you correctly surmise, Native Americans are not happy about non-Native Americans wearing war-bonnets and other paraphernalia they they are not culturally entitled to (for further reading, look up the controversy over the name of the Washington Redskins NFL team). However, Maori are for the most part, honoured by this, and encourage people to learn about and participate in the culture and to openly display Maori symbols. It is not uncommon for many young people these days to have tattoos of Maori art.

The probable reason for this difference in attitude is the different ways that indigenous people were treated. While white New Zealanders traded with Maori and, for the most part relations, were friendly (although there were brush wars which ran on and off from 1845 to 1872 in which about 2,000 Maori were killed) the fact is that the Treaty of Waitangi (signed in 1840) was a partnership between the colonising peoples and the indigenous population. Compare that with now the British treated Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals. They committed genocide upon them; the indigenous peoples were were ruthlessly slaughtered in their hundreds of thousands; and almost wiped them off the face of the land. Those who were left were herded into reservations, usually on crap land, and their borders were squeezed ever and ever smaller. The Australian Aboriginals were friendly and generous people, they lived on the land that they shared with all others because they had absolutely no concept whatsoever of land ownership. However, when they "shared" the British farmer's stock animals, this was considered as theft (cattle rustling); the farmers just sent out hunting parties to kill.

I guess its the nature of our shared history with Maori that makes the difference. We embrace that shared history while other countries are probably more ashamed of theirs, or if not, they ought to be.

One thing I have noticed about all this is how New Zealand is singled out by people who object to traditional "war dances" before matches. Fiji also has one (the Cibi), as do Tonga (Sipi Tau), Samoa (Sivi Tau) and the Cook Islands (Moiva). Even the Madagascan rugby team has one. Yet nary a word is spoken about their dances. I guess there's no news in it!
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,150
Post Likes
2,164
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
What I find interesting is the differing reactions of the aboriginal inhabitants of NZ, West Island and the USA.

Correct me if I'm wrong, USAans, but my impression from all the recent hoopla about the use of the war-bonnet by non-Native Americans, is that if a USA team came onto the pitch wearing war-bonnets as an expression of their cultural heritage, the Native American communities would regard it as extremely disrespectful and as an appropriation of their culture by the immigrant (since the 1400s) community. Ditto (at least for come communities) a Wallaby team performing on and to the didgeridoo (and particularly if it's a ladies team). Yet an immigrant not born in NZ (I believe I've seen you say, Ian, that you weren't born in NZ) is nevertheless quite comfortable with considering the haka as part of his own personal cultural heritage.

Good point.

Made me wonder: what if the ABs decided to go the next step in this racial harmony philosophy and put on a bit of blackface for the haka?
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
One thing I have noticed about all this is how New Zealand is singled out by people who object to traditional "war dances" before matches. Fiji also has one (the Cibi), as do Tonga (Sipi Tau), Samoa (Sivi Tau) and the Cook Islands (Moiva). Even the Madagascan rugby team has one. Yet nary a word is spoken about their dances. I guess there's no news in it!
We see the others so rarely, and New Zealand's very regularly.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,150
Post Likes
2,164
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
The probable reason for this difference in attitude is the different ways that indigenous people were treated. While white New Zealanders traded with Maori and, for the most part relations, were friendly (although there were brush wars which ran on and off from 1845 to 1872 in which about 2,000 Maori were killed) the fact is that the Treaty of Waitangi (signed in 1840) was a partnership between the colonising peoples and the indigenous population.

Here's a reality check for you:

http://www.minorityrights.org/4422/new-zealand/maori.html
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,682
Post Likes
1,768
Current Referee grade:
Level 2

Oh sure, it has not always been sweetness and light, but at least we didn't

► Slaughter our indigenous people by the tens of thousands
► Put a general bounty on them
► Force the remainder to assimilate or die
► Steal their children away from their families
► Use them as slaves/forced labour

Australia calls itself "the Lucky Country"; in reality, it ain't that lucky if your skin is dark!

http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/_files/research/dp/DP08.pdf
 
Last edited:

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
9,383
Post Likes
1,483
MOD ALERT

Let's avoid making this worse can we?
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Ok ok ok stop now. Don't make me get on a plane and slap you all *British. We have one ******* nation and that the USA the rest of you all just need to go and get rid of your pent up anger.
ps. That's why I'm on exchange to Holland.

* British includes the ****tards in Scotland who formed the union but are now trying to break it up. Make up your f£cking minds.

Ooow ow pretty butterfly

 
Last edited:

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
^^^ didn't help the matter did it?^^^
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Disrepute.

I always liked the Haka, until throat slitting and increased aggression tainted the theatre, nowadays its lost its sparkle , caused mainly by the overplaying and BarStewardisations a plenty.
 
Last edited:

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,682
Post Likes
1,768
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Disrepute.

I always liked the Haka, until throat slitting and increased aggression tainted the theatre, nowadays its lost its sparkle , caused mainly by the overplaying and BarStewardisations a plenty.

There is no "throat slitting" gesture. and there never was. That was just British Media hype that you (and some gullible readers) bought into. There were even a few white kiwis who were ignorant of this.

The so-called throat-slitting gesture indicates the drawing of "Te Hauora" (the breath of life) into the heart and lungs. Its part of the Māori creation story. My daughter understood that as soon as she saw it, due to her participation in Māori Studies classes at College.

Now while I would not expect the members of the British media to know that, I would expect them to do something that they seem incapable of... research. Rather that interviewing their own laptops, they should have approached Derek Lardelli (the man who wrote the Kano O Pango, and ask him what it means. AFAIK, Derek was never approached by any media from outside of NZ!

That's lazy journalism IMO.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,150
Post Likes
2,164
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
There is no "throat slitting" gesture. and there never was. That was just British Media hype that you (and some gullible readers) bought into. There were even a few white kiwis who were ignorant of this.

The so-called throat-slitting gesture indicates the drawing of "Te Hauora" (the breath of life) into the heart and lungs. Its part of the Māori creation story. My daughter understood that as soon as she saw it, due to her participation in Māori Studies classes at College.

Now while I would not expect the members of the British media to know that, I would expect them to do something that they seem incapable of... research. Rather that interviewing their own laptops, they should have approached Derek Lardelli (the man who wrote the Kano O Pango, and ask him what it means. AFAIK, Derek was never approached by any media from outside of NZ!

That's lazy journalism IMO.

yeah ... right. Mr. Cook I have a bridge for sale ...

In traditional Maori use, the cupped hand is drawn across the throat to show energy being dragged into the body. But by doing this with a raised thumb, Mr Lardelli has modified it into a knife-wielding gesture, to show that each team member is at the cutting edge of personal performance. :clap::nz:

images.jpg images1.jpg
 
Last edited:

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,150
Post Likes
2,164
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
kidgivingthebird.jpg

It is a little know fact that this young sports fan is observing the ancient Celtic custom of wishing good luck to his team by pointing the path to God and eternal enlightenment.
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,657
Post Likes
633
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Well played Dickie, well played! :clap::clap::clap:
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,657
Post Likes
633
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
youthful exuberance or haka again bringing sport into disrepute?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYQnTCtKGf4

I'm not well versed in the meaning of the haka and all its movements and their meanings etc but I think getting up in the faces like that is not a show of cultural significant of the haka to signify an upcoming battle. This is a game of football FFS! Is that really necessary? All that action does is potentially incite a violent reaction (legal or otherwise) in what could come next. As referees we try to find triggers the lead up to a violence and flash points on the field and then next time try to avoid those triggers or manage them different. If that ain't the biggest friggen trigger for a punch up for testosterone fuelled meat heads then I don't know what is? Perhaps the referees should have been onto it and made sure both teams were separated with some distance within their own half.

Frankly I find it pathetic and ruined the specatical of a haka, and I wished Aust stayed on their 10m line or turned their backs and walked away when NZ advanced. (Aust were to blame just as much by parking themselves right in the line, presumably to stick it back in their faces and indicate 'we're not intimidated by your dance').

There is no "throat slitting" gesture. and there never was. That was just British Media hype that you (and some gullible readers) bought into. There were even a few white kiwis who were ignorant of this.

The so-called throat-slitting gesture indicates the drawing of "Te Hauora" (the breath of life) into the heart and lungs. Its part of the Māori creation story. My daughter understood that as soon as she saw it, due to her participation in Māori Studies classes at College.

Now while I would not expect the members of the British media to know that, I would expect them to do something that they seem incapable of... research. Rather that interviewing their own laptops, they should have approached Derek Lardelli (the man who wrote the Kano O Pango, and ask him what it means. AFAIK, Derek was never approached by any media from outside of NZ!

That's lazy journalism IMO.

I don't buy it Ian. Derek would have known full well that no one outside of NZ would have known that but used it for dramatic effect with deliberate intentions to give the impression it meant throat slitting so as to make great television and get tongues talking...but then if asked or criticised he could conveniently hide behind 'oh but it doesn't mean that...it means let's all go out for ice cream, and if you were NZ you'd know that'. But it it made for great television in the world of elite rugby entertainment.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,682
Post Likes
1,768
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
In traditional Maori use, the cupped hand is drawn across the throat to show energy being dragged into the body. But by doing this with a raised thumb, Mr Lardelli has modified it into a knife-wielding gesture, to show that each team member is at the cutting edge of personal performance.

Thank you Dickie, for confirming, that the gesture is NOT about throat-slitting nor about threatening the opponent, but is in fact about the players' personal performance.

I wasn't able to find this quote, although I knew that something like it existed, so I really appreciate you going the extra distance to find that for me.

cheers.gif



I don't buy it Ian. Derek would have known full well that no one outside of NZ would have known that but used it for dramatic effect with deliberate intentions to give the impression it meant throat slitting so as to make great television and get tongues talking...but then if asked or criticised he could conveniently hide behind 'oh but it doesn't mean that...it means let's all go out for ice cream, and if you were NZ you'd know that'. But it it made for great television in the world of elite rugby entertainment.

Nonetheless, the Te Hauora gesture has been around for over 600 years


I am sure Mr Churchill was unaware how insulting his hand gesture would become a few years after he did this!!!

Screen-Shot-2013-07-13-at-12.37.39.png
 
Last edited:

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,682
Post Likes
1,768
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
PS. When Stu Wilson made this gesture after scoring a try against Wales on November 11, 1978...

StuWilson.png


..., he had utterly no idea of the trouble it was going to bring down on him from the British Media.


All he was doing was punching the air with delight at having scored the try, but the All-knowing All-seeing British Media accused him of giving a Nazi salute, and worse yet, on Armistice Day of all days, thereby insulting the fallen of WW2. They demanded an apology from him and the NZRFU. Wilson promptly told them to "naff orf" and reminded them that New Zealand was an ally during WW2.

Its just goes to show, that the British media will make up almost anything to create a story out of nothing. There is no cure for stupid!
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,150
Post Likes
2,164
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Thank you Dickie, for confirming, that the gesture is NOT about throat-slitting nor about threatening the opponent, but is in fact about the players' personal performance.

I wasn't able to find this quote, although I knew that something like it existed, so I really appreciate you going the extra distance to find that for me.

No worries - I'm nothing if not fair & unbiased
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top