ebola virus & haka. Why is there no vaccine?

[Browner]

Oh..... And that was just an opinion, to be supported or dismissed as each reader personally prefers

 

[Dickie E]

I am deeply offended that a cultural icon and tradition of my country has been equated to that of a virus. Dickie's comments disgust me, and are disgraceful example of bigotry of the worst kind

OK. I guess its with me.

Let me first assume this isn't some "faux-offended" at my expense.

Assuming that, no cultural offence was intended by me and I apologise if I have caused offence.

It was only ever intended as a bit of a dig at our cross-Tasman cousins in the same spirit as jokes about the Wallaby scrum and convict forebears.

I do agree with others, however, that the sporting haka is over-done and then over-protected under the banner of "cultural heritage".

Probably enough said. Ian, if you wish to continue discussion happy to do so via PM.

 

[Ian_Cook]

As is usual for you browner, you have completely and utterly missed the point. If you think the comments should be regarded as a "poke at kiwi rugby" that it just goes to show what a shallow person you are.

I do not object if people do not like haka
It is their choice to like or dislike it as they please. I actually don't give a fat rats arse whether you or anyone else likes or dislikes it.

I do not demand that opposing players/people face the haka or give it respect.
And nor does any one who knows anything about it. Don't mistake a beat-up by media jocks looking to create a story out of nothing, for the opinions of the average Kiwi. Many a Kaumatua (Maori elder) has wisely stated that people are "free to respond to haka as demanded by their own way of being". You do what you like. For all I care, you can turn your back and drop your pants or unzip your fly and wave your willy about. You do what you feel is best.

However, I draw the line at having an important part of the spiritual culture of my nation being called a virus, a scourge on humanity. Its a bigoted and racist attitude that is completely unacceptable to me. Just because some people think its a joke doesn't make it so. They are probably the same sorts of people who also think there is nothing wrong with calling a black person a "nigger", a person from the sub-continent a "paki" or a person from Asia a "chink", and that such terms are only meant in jest and that those "darkies" should just "suck it up". There is no angle that I can approach this from that makes it in any way funny or humorous. Haka was performed before rugby matches (albeit nowhere near in as traditional form as it is now) even when most of the rest of the so-called civilised world considered their indigenous peoples to be subhuman.

What does Haka really mean to us kiwis?
Haka, particularly as performed by the All Blacks, has become about spiritual preparation. Yes, it wasn't always that way, but the respect for those who went before us is something that has grown in this country over the last 30 years as we have come to terms with our past. That respect fits right in with the All Black ethos that the black jersey you wear is not exclusively yours, it belongs also to those who had it before you and to those who will have it in the future. The players perform Haka for themselves, and they choose to share that with the world. Anyone who thinks its just a token gesture toward Maori is dead wrong.

What do I think should happen with the haka?
Personally, I think we should only perform it on the field for home tests; our grounds, our rules. When we play tests overseas, we should only perform it on the field if invited to do so by the host union. If no invitation is forthcoming, then we do what we did in Cardiff in 2005, perform it in the changing rooms just prior to going on (and the crowd misses out). That would be an interesting litmus test wouldn't it? You only have to look at what happened after the 2005 Welsh test to realise that there would be very few occasions when an invitation was not forthcoming.


ETA: Missed Dickie's post before I posted this, so its not a case of me ignoring the apology (which is accepted).

 

[Dickie E]

However, I draw the line at having an important part of the spiritual culture of my nation being called a virus, a scourge on humanity. Its a bigoted and racist attitude that is completely unacceptable to me. Just because some people think its a joke doesn't make it so. They are probably the same sorts of people who also think there is nothing wrong with calling a black person a "nigger", a person from the sub-continent a "paki" or a person from Asia a "chink", and that such terms are only meant in jest and that those "darkies" should just "suck it up". There is no angle that I can approach this from that makes it in any way funny or humorous. Haka was performed before rugby matches (albeit nowhere near in as traditional form as it is now) even when most of the rest of the so-called civilised world considered their indigenous peoples to be subhuman.

I am loathe to continue with this but, mate, you're slipping into some sort of bizarro world here. The pre-match war dance (aka haka) has no other purpose than to give New Zealand sporting teams an edge over their opponents by either i) directly intimidating them and/or ii) geeing up the crowd.

It is insidious because every NZ sport team now equates the All Black's success with the war dance so they use it themselves. As a previous poster said, once you see it on every street corner in Auckland it becomes its own joke that everyone can laugh at, except the Kiwis.

But, hey, we all try it on. Our S15 team here fires off fireworks when we score a try, but deathly silence when the other team scores.

If you criticised that, I'd give you a smile and a knowing wink. I wouldn't call you bigoted, racist or all the other pejoratives (that you ironically deride as politically correct in other discussions)

 

[Ian_Cook]

Yeah, so that would account nicely for the overwhelming success of the All Blacks Sevens team....

...oh, hang-on, they only perform it AFTER they have won a tournament and been presented with the trophy, and facing the crowd!!! They must be trying to intimidate the opposition for the NEXT tournament?

Got it now! Thanks!

 

[Dickie E]

Yeah, so that would account nicely for the overwhelming success of the All Blacks Sevens team....

...oh, hang-on, they only perform it AFTER they have won a tournament and been presented with the trophy, and facing the crowd!!! They must be trying to intimidate the opposition for the NEXT tournament?

Got it now! Thanks!

doing the war dance doesn't guarantee success nor is success dependent on doing the war dance.


Recently overheard:

"hey, guys, we're off to the world tiddlywinks championship. Any ideas about how we can improve our chances?"

"well, the rugby chaps do the haka. Maybe that would help. Can't accuse them of being unsuccessful. And at the very least it will get us some free publicity. Might even go viral on Youtube"

"nah, the world governing body would never allow it. Remember how they canned the Aussies from singing Waltzing Matilda"

"that's the best bit. We say its part of our cultural heritage - building bridges with the Maoris and all that. Tell 'em they're racists if they don't go for it"

"Cuz, you're on a winner. Have another DB on me"

 

[Ian_Cook]

doing the war dance doesn't guarantee success nor is success dependent on doing the war dance.

Right, so it "has no other purpose than to give New Zealand sporting teams an edge over their opponents by either i) directly intimidating them (except when it doesn't intimidate them) and/or ii) geeing up the crowd (except when it doesn't gee them up)"


Tui!


How about when two New Zealand sporting teams, i.e,. two schoolboy rugby teams, play each other. Like that will work, aye!
They both perform their school Haka pre match.

Dickie the geeing up if the crowd is just a side effect (see All Black v Wales at Cardiff 2005!) and not always a desirous one.

 

[Dickie E]

I like your idea about the Seven's model. Let's try that in the 15's game.

All Blacks to do haka at the end of the game (if they have won). They still get their photos in the paper and nay-sayers like me will be put in their place. It will even look more authentic with those sweaty & muddy bodies and will be a true celebration of victory.

Let's do it.

 

[ChrisR]

Ian & Dickie,

pardon me butting into your chat.

Does the haka really intimidate the opposition? Having never been on the receiving end I'm curious to hear what anyone who had feel about it. I would think that it would pump up both sides.

 

[crossref]

Almost every rugby team has some kind of pre game huddle / shout. The haha is a rather over extended version of that.

Should the all blacks be allowed to dance? I say that Yes, it's a tradition and it's fun

Should the opponents be required to sit still, arms folded, pay attention, be respectful? Of course not. I hark back to campese knocking a ball around behind the posts. That does not seem an inappropriate response to me. If they want to.

 

[Dickie E]

Almost every rugby team has some kind of pre game huddle / shout. The haha is a rather over extended version of that.

Should the all blacks be allowed to dance? I say that Yes, it's a tradition and it's fun

Should the opponents be required to sit still, arms folded, pay attention, be respectful? Of course not. I hark back to campese knocking a ball around behind the posts. That does not seem an inappropriate response to me. If they want to.

The IRB gets all funny about that.

 

[Daftmedic]

Ian,

I probably shouldn't but I'll jump in asking you to stay on the forum, we've been having some very interesting discussion together on several topics and I'd like to keep reading you here.

A few points on the discussion above:
1. Life and the world we live in are not "Black or White"... It's all a infinite palette of greys...

2. Do I find Dikie's comparison inappropriate?
Most definitely

3. Do I believe there is room to get that offended?
Probably not. It's meant to be humour (at least I hope so). Judge the style and quality of the joke as much as you want but please don't take it at the first level.

4. Personally, I like the "Ka mate, Ka mate" Haka and what (I believe) it means (I've got enough Kiwi mates in SG to have discussed that at length)

5. But I find somehow disrespectful to other teams (and somehow to NZ as well) that opposition teams can't react the way they want (think about France being fined for crossing the middle line for the last WRC final for example).
It's a war dance, it's a motivation, it's a challenge (on top of the heritage it represents) and as such, it should be answered in some way - as some other Islanders do at international level and as Schools do in NZ (as far as I know)
And somehow, you can understand that some nations take that as a specific privilege given to the All Black to impress their opponents before each game...
Would everyone like the French (again), playing accordion and dancing bourée with a baguette before each game because it's "part of their heritage"?

To conclude, despite being a sensitive topic for you (which I can understand), try to keep open to a certain level of debate and sometime poor humour.

And finally, please, re-read your own signature :biggrin:

Friendly yours,
Pierre.

i would suggest the French would run away. *closes window*

 

[Daftmedic]

Yeah, so that would account nicely for the overwhelming success of the All Blacks Sevens team....

...oh, hang-on, they only perform it AFTER they have won a tournament and been presented with the trophy, and facing the crowd!!! They must be trying to intimidate the opposition for the NEXT tournament?

Got it now! Thanks!

*hand goes up at the back of the class* you lost to South Africa in the commonwealth games. *Puts his helmet and body armour on*
in the words of that Australian rugby pundit chap "This is all sizzle and no steak"

 

[talbazar]

i would suggest the French would run away. *closes window*

Ha ha ha... :france:

PS: Robby, can you add a white flag to the icons?

 

[crossref]

The IRB gets all funny about that.

yes, that's what I am getting at. It's not the haka I object to it's the the way the IRB makes everyone 'respect' it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

yes, that's what I am getting at. It's not the haka I object to it's the the way the IRB makes everyone 'respect' it.

And so do I.

Most people understand that, some don't; but a few choose not to!

 

[RobLev]

What I find interesting is the differing reactions of the aboriginal inhabitants of NZ, West Island and the USA.

Correct me if I'm wrong, USAans, but my impression from all the recent hoopla about the use of the war-bonnet by non-Native Americans, is that if a USA team came onto the pitch wearing war-bonnets as an expression of their cultural heritage, the Native American communities would regard it as extremely disrespectful and as an appropriation of their culture by the immigrant (since the 1400s) community. Ditto (at least for come communities) a Wallaby team performing on and to the didgeridoo (and particularly if it's a ladies team). Yet an immigrant not born in NZ (I believe I've seen you say, Ian, that you weren't born in NZ) is nevertheless quite comfortable with considering the haka as part of his own personal cultural heritage.

 

[SimonSmith]

Not quite.

The Redskins are getting dumped on because there is no way that that phrase is anything but racist.

The Seminoles or the Chiefs are, at least, intended to be respectful.
It's a minefield.

 

[Browner]

What I find interesting is the differing reactions of the aboriginal inhabitants of NZ, West Island and the USA.

Correct me if I'm wrong, USAans, but my impression from all the recent hoopla about the use of the war-bonnet by non-Native Americans, is that if a USA team came onto the pitch wearing war-bonnets as an expression of their cultural heritage, the Native American communities would regard it as extremely disrespectful and as an appropriation of their culture by the immigrant (since the 1400s) community. Ditto (at least for come communities) a Wallaby team performing on and to the didgeridoo (and particularly if it's a ladies team). Yet an immigrant not born in NZ (I believe I've seen you say, Ian, that you weren't born in NZ) is nevertheless quite comfortable with considering the haka as part of his own personal cultural heritage.

The OP linking of virus and haka, isn't disrespectful, it was witty and a clever play on words that's all....

What's the difference between the two?
One is a seemingly uncontrolled spread increasingly evolving and metamorphing throughout the world , and the other is .......

I always liked the Haka, until throat slitting and increased aggression tainted the theatre, nowadays its lost its sparkle , caused mainly by the overplaying and BarStewardisations a plenty.

The bit that is most offensive on this or any other forum/thread ( IMO)is how anyone who dares mutter any anti NZ comment is then demonized

 

[SimonSmith]

The bit that is most offensive on this or any other forum/thread ( IMO)is how anyone who dares mutter any anti NZ comment is then demonized

Don't be a total dick by misrepresenting things using sweeping generalizations. Ian and other NZ members will happily be down on NZ when appropriate.

What tends to raise ire is sweeping inaccuracies (see above) and lies.

Ian - please do NOT engage on this.