England v France

[DocY]

It is against the laws.
It was clear and obvious.
So why is it not expected?

or conversely

If we have decided we want to permit this, why is it still in the laws?

To play devil's advocate (FWIW I thought the call was right, in the spirit of the law), the law is not clear about what 'emerging' means and you so rarely see it penalised that there's a) not really a consensus about what is meant and b) very few people actually knew it was against the law.

When you add the extra complication of another player playing the ball first saying it was clearly still emerging is a bit of a stretch.

Or to put it another way: had he said play on, how many people would have said it should have been a penalty?

 

[Phil E]

It is against the laws.
It was clear and obvious.
So why is it not expected?

If it was clear and obvious why is everyone here debating it and why is everyone at work asking me about it?
Why did players from both sides look perplexed when he gave it?

Had he just played on no one would have minded, no one would have questioned it. Why blow when you don't have to?

 

[crossref]

I rate AG highly. But Saturday was his biggest game and it showed a bit. But I predict we'll see him doing well at the 2019 RWC.

What about the France PK close to the end of the game ? It illustrated a point we have discussed here about whether the time on the clock should/does influence the length of the time you are prepared to play advantage.

AG signalled PK adv to France, but played a long adv. When he finally blew the time was (IRRC) approx 79.45, so they rushed the the kick to the corner -- which missed touch.

I thought that AG had needlessly created a time-pressure for France, and given the very little time on the clock should have perhaps played a shorter advantage -- views?

 

[ChrisR]

Re. falling on the ball coming out of a ruck. We have discussed this previously here: www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?19689-Falling-on-ball-from-ruck

 

[The Fat]

I watched the replay last night and find some of the comments re AG's performance interesting.
Sure, there was a few decisions that raised a few eyebrows but I think there's a bit of the old "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario going on with that game. It was a bit of a stop-start affair but if you take out all of the dropped ball, knock-ons, forward passes, obstructions etc, (not to mention walking the scrums around), we are left with PK & FK infringements that AG blew for. IMO, he got most of those calls correct. I think both AG and his AR missed a late hit on a French kicker very early in the game when France were attacking down their right hand side. After the following lineout to England, he FKed France for an infringement which put the ball all the way back to halfway. This could well have been 3 points to France if the late hit (maybe by Mike Brown???) had been picked up.
The falling on the ball coming out of the ruck will get more discussion so I'll skip that for now.
Whilst probably technically correct, I thought May was a little unlucky to get a YC but if AG wimps it on that one, you can bet your life there would be something similar happen later in the game and would mean he'd have to wimp it a 2nd time (Murphy's Law).

This is what I posted back at #2;

I tried to stay awake to watch both games but hey, I'm old.
Did manage to see the last 18 minutes of this game and it looked like a bit of stop-start stuff. Looked like AG was trying to let the ball come out of a few untidy rucks and scrums to get some footy. Would this be a fair comment?
I did think the end of the game was odd. Camera didn't stay on play after England awarded PK. Heard the final whistle and saw AG turn to walk off and THEN saw England kick the ball to touch. Very strange.

After watching most of the replay, I think the bit in bold is true. Unfortunately, when you try to let rucks play out a bit more, you run the risk of having lots of untidy contests for the ball. He definitely wanted the scrums to be completed and get the ball back in play. Both sides were guilty of wheeling. Scrums improved a little when French Props replaced but still some wheeling and also hookers spoken to about butting heads pre-engagement. May be better to use language both hookers understand, during admonishment, rather than how he might speak to a couple of Super Rugby teams from Aus or NZ.

I would have penalised Wood for sealing off as well so happy with that one.

I'm not saying it was AG's best game, but he didn't have a lot to work with and you can't chuck the whistle away hoping the players will suddenly start to execute properly and start playing entertaining, skillful rugby.

 

[TheBFG]

AG signalled PK adv to France, but played a long adv. When he finally blew the time was (IRRC) approx 79.45, so they rushed the the kick to the corner -- which missed touch.

I thought that AG had needlessly created a time-pressure for France, and given the very little time on the clock should have perhaps played a shorter advantage -- views?

Damned if you do damned if you don't!

 

[DocY]

I rate AG highly. But Saturday was his biggest game and it showed a bit. But I predict we'll see him doing well at the 2019 RWC.

What about the France PK close to the end of the game ? It illustrated a point we have discussed here about whether the time on the clock should/does influence the length of the time you are prepared to play advantage.

AG signalled PK adv to France, but played a long adv. When he finally blew the time was (IRRC) approx 79.45, so they rushed the the kick to the corner -- which missed touch.

I thought that AG had needlessly created a time-pressure for France, and given the very little time on the clock should have perhaps played a shorter advantage -- views?

I think he was right to err on the side of playing longer - the French could always have asked for the penalty!

 

[TheBFG]

Has anyone got a link to the match. Something that came to mind on the above issue of the call "it's out" only for the ref to then ping Wood for diving on the ball, was there a second ruck?

I seem to remember that Hughes points at the lose ball, ref calls "out" and Hughes and AN-OTHER FRA player then both kick at the ball, but also make contact with each other, is this maybe a 2nd ruck and AG call is based on Wood diving on the ball then?

 

[DocY]

Has anyone got a link to the match. Something that came to mind on the above issue of the call "it's out" only for the ref to then ping Wood for diving on the ball, was there a second ruck?

I seem to remember that Hughes points at the lose ball, ref calls "out" and Hughes and AN-OTHER FRA player then both kick at the ball, but also make contact with each other, is this maybe a 2nd ruck and AG call is based on Wood diving on the ball then?

There's been a lot of discussion about it on this thread. No second ruck, Wood was pinged for diving on the ball as it emerged from the ruck.

 

[thepercy]

He didn't land on his head.

He landed on his side and shoulder, the force of landing then meant his head swung sideways and bounced off the turf.

Did his head hit the floor? Yes.
Did he land on his head? No.

If the aim is to prevent head and neck injuries, then dropping/driving an oppo so that their head bounces off the turf, even if it isn't the very first part to land, would be deserving of additional sanction.

 

[Drift]

The talk to the hookers was not professional enough,

Yeah Nigel is praised for his wit and jokes on the field? It's a very standard saying in this part of the world and I thought got his message across well.

 

[FlipFlop]

Yeah Nigel is praised for his wit and jokes on the field? It's a very standard saying in this part of the world and I thought got his message across well.

Not a fan of the way Nigel does it either. He often comes across badly as well, using language we would not accept from the players. For example Nigel saying "I'm straighter than that throw" at a line out. What if the next scrum the non-feeding #9 said "Come on Sir - you're straighter than that put in".

You can make you point with out resorting to things like that, or with how AG spoke to players. And it is important, especially when one side might not understand the nuances of the language. And you shouldn't be saying stuff in a way that you wouldn't accept from the players.

 

[DocY]

FWIW I don't think AG was out of line with this comment - it got his point across without overstepping the mark and being disrespectful (IMO). Sure, the French might not be familiar with the phrase, but I'm sure they'd have understood it.

I don't buy the argument about not using language that we wouldn't expect from the players - we spend the whole game telling players what to do, which is perfectly normal, but if they tell us what to do it's probably going to be a penalty.

 

[Crucial]

Yeah Nigel is praised for his wit and jokes on the field? It's a very standard saying in this part of the world and I thought got his message across well.

What did AG actually say?
I vaguely recall something about 'playing silly buggers' then the missus laughing at the commentators apologizing for the language. I guess we must all be such crude people in NZ/Oz as I couldn't work out what they were apologizing for.

PS: In NZ we had this discussion about the use of the word 'bugger' last century when this classic ad came out and the consensus even back then that it was entirely appropriate.

 

[DocY]

What did AG actually say?

"Stop dicking about", IIRC. When the two hookers were dicking about at a scrum near the French line.

 

[didds]

i think the apologies for language comment from the TV commentators was after the "****ing hell ref" shout by a player.

didds

 

[Crucial]

"Stop dicking about", IIRC. When the two hookers were dicking about at a scrum near the French line.

i think the apologies for language comment from the TV commentators was after the "****ing hell ref" shout by a player.

didds

Thanks both.

Old age and beer make for a bad memory at times.

I have no problem with 'stop dicking about' either. The language isn't bad and if the phrase was used as a 'shock tactic' to surprise the players and get their attention then good. I'd rather hear that than have to watch scrum resets and a frustrated ref.

 

[crossref]

"Stop dicking about", IIRC. When the two hookers were dicking about at a scrum near the French line.

I didn't hear that - I did hear him say 'stop playing silly buggers' which at the time I didn't think was a problem, but on reflection he could have chosen better words, given the massive audience.

 

[DocY]

I didn't hear that - I did hear him say 'stop playing silly buggers' which at the time I didn't think was a problem, but on reflection he could have chosen better words, given the massive audience.

I may well be mis-remembering (I confess, some alcohol was involved) - it was the time when he called out the two hookers for putting their heads together, rather than where they should go.

 

[crossref]

I may well be mis-remembering (I confess, some alcohol was involved) - it was the time when he called out the two hookers for putting their heads together, rather than where they should go.

yup...