Fouled immediately after scoring a try - penalty restart?

[Dan_A]

Two questions:-
1) Have I imagined that a referee can award a penalty restart from halfway in the event of foul play immediately after a try has been scored (e.g. defender knee drops into try scorer on the ground)? I can't find the law reference for this.
2) Assuming the above is correct, what happens is the try is scored after 80mins is up - my instinct is that you can't finish on a penalty so the attackers get their kick?

p.s. this was a hypothetical conversation at the v end of the 2nd test between NZ and Eng when England got a late consolation try.

 

[TNT88]

Conveniently, it's the last law in the law book.

22.17(c)
When a player commits any other foul play in the in-goal while the ball is out of play, the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would otherwise have re-started.

The play would restart on halfway after the conversion, so that's where the penalty is given.

As for your other question, I once asked a professional referee this after seeing it in super15. If the infringement happens before full time, so at 79:59mins, then you restart play with a penalty. If it occurs after the 80th minute, then you can't restart play.

For those of us who don't referee on TV. We are the sole judge of time, and usually we tell the players it is the last play beforehand, so we are unlikely to ever restart play after 80minutes with a penalty on halfway.

 

[MiniRef]

It's actually the very last law in the law book, makes sense actually!



The play would restart on halfway after the conversion so that's where the penalty is given.

As for your other question, I once asked a professional referee this after seeing it in super15. If the infringement happens before full time, so at 79:59mins, then you restart play with a penalty. If it occurs after the 80th minute, then you can't restart play.

Is that in LOTG? Sounds daft to me; if a defending team (in this case) can't maintain its discipline then it deserves the punishment - irrespective of whether 80 minutes has gone by on the clock - the ref hasn't blown for full time.

 

[MiniRef]

Conveniently, it's the last law in the law book.



The play would restart on halfway after the conversion, so that's where the penalty is given.

As for your other question, I once asked a professional referee this after seeing it in super15. If the infringement happens before full time, so at 79:59mins, then you restart play with a penalty. If it occurs after the 80th minute, then you can't restart play.

For those of us who don't referee on TV. We are the sole judge of time, and usually we tell the players it is the last play beforehand, so we are unlikely to ever restart play after 80minutes with a penalty on halfway.

I see you've edited your post to add the last paragraph...if I'd told players that it was last play, then team scores, defender drops knee onto scorer (etc) then I would have no hesitation in awarding a penalty from half way. And perhaps YC the offender.

 

[TNT88]

Law 5.7(e):

If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead.

If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

OK, I explained it wrongly. If the TRY is scored before full time, then you can award a penalty on halfway for foul play in the in-goal. If the try happens after 80 minutes, the ball becomes dead after the try is scored. It doesn't matter how many punches are thrown in-goal, the law says time expires after the conversion.

This is all logically deducible from the above law.

 

[Dixie]

This is all logically deducible from the above law.

I'm not sure it's as simple as you conclude. Do we allow a conversion kick if the try is scored in minute 83? If so, that contradicts 5.7(e), in that play has been allowed to continue beyond the moment the ball was made dead by scoring. So after a try, we have Zombie ball - seemingly dead, but still animated. Indeed, Law 5.7 explicitly addresses the point:

[LAWS](e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

(f) If time expires after a try has been scored the referee allows time for the conversion kick to be taken.[/LAWS]

The bit in bold red seems to make it clear that the ball is NOT dead after a try but before the conversion. To me, that gives a solid justification to the ref who would award a PK on halfway for the knee-drop into the scorer's back.

 

[crossref]

I'm not sure it's as simple as you conclude. Do we allow a conversion kick if the try is scored in minute 83? If so, that contradicts 5.7(e), in that play has been allowed to continue beyond the moment the ball was made dead by scoring. So after a try, we have Zombie ball - seemingly dead, but still animated. Indeed, Law 5.7 explicitly addresses the point:

[LAWS](e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

(f) If time expires after a try has been scored the referee allows time for the conversion kick to be taken.[/LAWS]

The bit in bold red seems to make it clear that the ball is NOT dead after a try but before the conversion. To me, that gives a solid justification to the ref who would award a PK on halfway for the knee-drop into the scorer's back.

I agree with this. to me they are only free to punch eachother once I have blown my whistle to indicate full time. Which is after the conversion.

 

[TNT88]

- The ball becomes dead after a try is scored
- The game ends when (1) time expires and (2) the ball becomes dead
- If time has expired, then the ball becomes dead resulting from a try, there is an allowance to take a conversion - that is the only exception

That exception does equate to making these two laws redundant:

5.1
A match lasts no longer than 80 minutes plus time lost, extra time and any special conditions. A match is divided into two halves each of not more than forty minutes playing time.

5.1(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead.

I mean, in your club game you might say "time has not expired until I blow full time". But the point is, strictly speaking, when time has expired and the try is scored that is effectively game over, no 10 point turn around is on the cards. The question in the first post was in regard to a test match with official timekeeping, in which the referee could not invoke the "I haven't blown my whistle line", they would be constrained by the actual timing of the try.

 

[crossref]

there is a big difference between time-expired and game over.

when a ball is /isn't 'dead' is a slippery concept (threads passim) but we do know that the game doesn't end when a try is scored, it ends after the conversion is taken (and re-taken if necessary as we have seen quite recently)

 

[Browner]

All Law is written to provide a match consequence to foul play acts ( this is an essential discipline control tool) post 'time expiry' foul play should carry equal consequence IMO.

 

[Ian_Cook]

- The ball becomes dead after a try is scored
- The game ends when (1) time expires and (2) the ball becomes dead
- If time has expired, then the ball becomes dead resulting from a try, there is an allowance to take a conversion - that is the only exception

That exception does equate to making these two laws redundant:





I mean, in your club game you might say "time has not expired until I blow full time". But the point is, strictly speaking, when time has expired and the try is scored that is effectively game over, no 10 point turn around is on the cards. The question in the first post was in regard to a test match with official timekeeping, in which the referee could not invoke the "I haven't blown my whistle line", they would be constrained by the actual timing of the try.

Agree with that, and it has actually happened in an NPC game a few years back

80 minutes was up (siren gone)
Try scorer copped an elbow after the grounding
Referee spoke to player then allowed conversion
Referee blew no side
Defending team protested
Offender was cited
Keith Lawrence (then head of NZRU referees) said it was the correct decision by the referee. IIRC it was on a segment called "Jeff the Ref", a weekly TV Sports magazine programme back then

Reason quoted was the wording of Law 22.17

[LAWS]22.17(c)
When a player commits any other foul play in the in-goal while the ball is out of play, the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would otherwise have re-started.[/LAWS]

Since the 80 minutes was up (siren gone) play does not otherwise restart, and no Law in the Laws of the Game can make that happen.

 

[didds]

nobody bothered with that law/approach in 1992 tho..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZt95BPmVIc&t=2m18s

didds

 

[Browner]

But doesn't
22.17 specifically refer to when the ball is "out of play"

In the OP the ball isn't "Out of play" as per law definition [LAWS]. Out of play: This happens when the ball or the ball carrier has gone into touch or touch-in-goal, or touched or crossed the dead ball line.[/LAWS]

So is this the relevant law?

 

[OB..]

If a penalty is awarded at halfway for the foul play, and the kick misses, can the defenders then break out and score a try?

 

[Rushforth]

If a penalty is awarded at halfway for the foul play, and the kick misses, can the defenders then break out and score a try?

Is that a rhetorical question?

 

[OB..]

Is that a rhetorical question?

It is a different perspective.

People are trying to find an answer in the laws, but there is nothing explicit, so we start drawing inferences.

I think it is unfair that a player can do a knee drop on a last-second scorer without it costing his team, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Ian_Cook]

nobody bothered with that law/approach in 1992 tho..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZt95BPmVIc&t=2m18s

didds

Because...

1. in 1992 there was no siren. The referee was still calling no side.

2. Richard Loe's king hit on Paul Carroza was in about the 74th minute, not after the 80 minutes.

But doesn't
22.17 specifically refer to when the ball is "out of play"

In the OP the ball isn't "Out of play" as per law definition [LAWS]. Out of play: This happens when the ball or the ball carrier has gone into touch or touch-in-goal, or touched or crossed the dead ball line.[/LAWS]

So is this the relevant law?

Yes it is because Law 22.17 specifically and only refers to in-goal.

[LAWS]22.17 MISCONDUCT OR UNFAIR PLAY IN IN-GOAL
(c) Any other foul play. When a player commits any other foul play in the in-goal while the ball
is out of play, the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would otherwise
have re-started.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Its simply poor wording. The ball can hardly be in "touch or touch-in-goal, or touched or crossed the dead ball line" if it is in goal.

The Law in which this clause is included refers only to foul play in the in-goal area. Clearly, "out of play" in this context refers to the period after the ball is grounded. The ball is then out of play until the restart. when General Play can again take place.

Do you really believe that if the foul play takes place in the in goal after it is grounded and the ball is still in the in goal, that the referee would have to apply a different Law from that which he would have to apply if the ball subsequently goes into touch or touch-in-goal, or touched or crossed the dead ball line?

As OB.. frequently states here, referees have to make sense of the Laws.

 

[Rushforth]

but you have to draw the line somewhere.

I have always understood that a penalty offence is penalised. Ignore hooters, for the sake of my argument.

With only three years experience, I've only refereed on some 100 match days. Since some of those have been many short matches (Sevens, U13, etc.) double that to 200. In not one of those games have I had to penalise after a try, let alone after full time.

In fact, I cannot recall seeing such an incident at any level, ever. It does happen to be the kind of question I asked of my father 30 years ago.

If play continues due to a penalty offence, then it continues. There is no line to be drawn.

 

[didds]

Because...


2. Richard Loe's king hit on Paul Carroza was in about the 74th minute, not after the 80 minutes.

sorry Ian - I hadn't meant to imply it was opn full time. i was alluding to the fact that dropping both knees into the back of a try scorer had no repercussions in 1992.

I have no doubt Loe was not the only one - his is just the incident I recall most strongly after 22 years.

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

sorry Ian - I hadn't meant to imply it was opn full time. i was alluding to the fact that dropping both knees into the back of a try scorer had no repercussions in 1992.

I have no doubt Loe was not the only one - his is just the incident I recall most strongly after 22 years.

didds

The issue with that one didds is the referee (Patrick Robin) was quite some distance away running into the in-goal and was unsighted. The TJ (Sandy McNicol) was the only official in position to see it, but if you look at the video you posted, you see him in the background look up and give referee Robin the nod immediately after the grounding. He looks away just priot to the foul play so he doesn't it.

TJ's were allowed to hang the flag for foul play by 1992, I have no doubt that of McNicol seen what Loe did, he would have flagged it. No TMO's in those days, of course.