Fouled immediately after scoring a try - penalty restart?

[didds]

or they were both scared of Richard Loe of course ;-)

didds

 

[crossref]

question :
not about the full time problem, let's say it's in normal time

if red score, and blue then commit an act of foul play, and let's say you are also going to issue YC.

What's the sequence
1 - blow whistle for try
2 - indicate try has been scored
3 - do you blow whistle again and indicate a PK ?? I think that would confuse everyone, so presumably no.
4 - issue the YC
5 - allow the conversion
6 - run to centre and make mark
7 - blow whistle and indicatate PK
(or would 7 come before 6)

 

[Ian_Cook]

question :
not about the full time problem, let's say it's in normal time

if red score, and blue then commit an act of foul play, and let's say you are also going to issue YC.

What's the sequence
1 - blow whistle for try
2 - indicate try has been scored
3 - do you blow whistle again and indicate a PK ?? yes, short double/triple blow.
3a. Call over captain and culprit, tell them what your decision is
4 - issue the YC
5 - allow the conversion
6 - run to centre and make mark
7 - blow whistle and indicate PK

Pretty well right crossref. I've added my twopence worth in red

 

[OB..]

I have always understood that a penalty offence is penalised. Ignore hooters, for the sake of my argument.

[...]
If play continues due to a penalty offence, then it continues. There is no line to be drawn.

So as the players are returning to the dressing room, one punches another, and you would award a penalty?

Of course a line has to be drawn. The discussion is about when.

 

[Rushforth]

So as the players are returning to the dressing room, one punches another, and you would award a penalty?

Of course a line has to be drawn. The discussion is about when.

I can't imagine why players would be returning to the dressing room before the final whistle. Once the final whistle is blown, the match is over and neither 6.A.4 (a) nor 6.A.8 (d) apply.

If players want to punch each other during the match, they can be penalised or - at higher levels - cited. Players who are punched probably either deserved it or someone on their team did. If players were to start brawling after the match and I were to witness it, I would spend the first couple of seconds (a) flabbergasted and (b) making sure they aren't just messing around before possibly using my whistle for psychological effect.

The line is the final whistle. After the referee blows "no side" (etymology please, OB.. interrobang) the game is over and he is no longer the referee (although still a match official, of course).

 

[crossref]

I appreciate what you are saying Rushfroth, but.

The way I see it --
If there is a punch after the try, after time has expired, but before I have blown my whistle for no side then

- I would certainly feel that the player is open to sanction and I certainly could - for instance - issue a RC if that was warranted.

- a YC would be pointless unless, perhaps it was a second YC and therefore a RC, which might be worth doing (debatable)

- However Ian's post 11 persuaded me that - like it or not - the game doesn't restart.

 

[Dixie]

So as the players are returning to the dressing room, one punches another, and you would award a penalty?

Of course a line has to be drawn. The discussion is about when.

Good to have you back OB. Have you been on holiday? Supporting Spain in Brazil, perhaps?

 

[Rushforth]

- a YC would be pointless ...

Agreed on everything else, but to me - and this is not a law but our local regulation - a RC implies a mandatory (subject to appeal/review) three week/match suspension, whereas a YC is something at the very least for the club to think about.

Please note that I did say to ignore hooters/TV time for the sake of my argument. I am the time-keeper in my match as per 6.A.4 (b), and I'm not going to whistle no side if there has just been a penalty offence. Should I have NOT seen an alleged offence after a try at the end of the game, then trust me there will be 90 seconds for the conversion.

Fortunately none of these scenarios have happened to me.

 

[OB..]

Good to have you back OB. Have you been on holiday? Supporting Spain in Brazil, perhaps?

Sadly I had to go to America urgently for a family funeral.

My body has arrived back but the rest of me seems slow to join it.

 

[OB..]

The line is the final whistle.

The whistle usually indicates that something HAS happened. In this case it says that the game ended with the try, the conversion being specifically permitted after that.

After the referee blows "no side" (etymology please, OB.. interrobang)

It has been common usage since the nineteenth century, but I have never seen any explanation. They probably thought the set "off side, on side, no side" too obvious to need explanation. Dictionaries simply define it as "the end of a rugby game"

the game is over and he is no longer the referee (although still a match official, of course).

Given the distinction you are making, that is true whichever understanding you have of the "end of the game".

 

[Rushforth]

The whistle usually indicates that something HAS happened. In this case it says that the game ended with the try, the conversion being specifically permitted after that.

As crossref and Ian Cook above indicated, each whistle is separate. The latter pointed out "short double/triple blow" for the penalty. Not in the letter of the law, but common practice all the same.

As per 6.A.8 (c) I whistle for each score - both try and conversion in this case - and separately for the end of the half (subitem a). I'm not one for flourishes, but the sound of my final whistle is (again common practice) very different to the blows/blasts for scrums, penalties, scores and other stoppages (and [re]starts).

All I'm trying to say is that in the exceptional event that something unpleasant happened after a try in what would have been the final act (bar the conversion), I would not see the game as being over, and moreover that no players would know at my level. (That said, I do tell the players "last play bar penalty" too often, but what am I to do with the Dutch?)

Edit to add: earliest reference to "No Side" (in quotes!) seems to be Tom Brown's School Days (1857), in the sense of "One of the parties in an athletic or sporting contest or game of skill.", according to Oxon.

 

[Ian_Cook]

6.A.7 (c) to (f) indicate the time when the referee MUST blow his whislte, however

[LAWS]Law 6.A.7 (b) The referee has the power to blow the whistle and stop play at any time.[/LAWS]

This covers any other times that the referee wishes to ujse his whistle to get the players' attention. This can include the short double triple whistle when he's going to the pocket. or an extra blow to indicate that a second offence has occurred.

 

[Rushforth]

6.A.7 (c) to (f) indicate the time when the referee MUST blow his whislte, however

[LAWS]Law 6.A.7 (b) The referee has the power to blow the whistle and stop play at any time.[/LAWS]

This covers any other times that the referee wishes to ujse his whistle to get the players' attention. This can include the short double triple whistle when he's going to the pocket. or an extra blow to indicate that a second offence has occurred.

Thank you Ian for a more concise explanation than I could provide.

I was trying to explain that after "No Side" is whistled, there is no play to stop any longer.

 

[aussie battler]

so what would be the call if the foul play after the try happens after half time???

play would restart on half way with a PK to the non offending team????

 

[Ian_Cook]

so what would be the call if the foul play after the try happens after half time???

play would restart on half way with a PK to the non offending team????

I knew someone would ask that sooner or later. I guess you mean after the half-time hooter has sounded but before the the end of the half?

Once again, the Law is

[LAWS]22.17 MISCONDUCT OR UNFAIR PLAY IN IN-GOAL
(c) Any other foul play. When a player commits any other foul play in the in-goal while the ball
is out of play, the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would otherwise
have re-started.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

A strict interpretation of the Law would mean that the second half would start with a PK to the non-offending team at the half-way line, since that is "where the game would have otherwise restarted". As a referee, I think you'd need a pair of steel ones to carry through with that decision.

The same reasoning prevents a penalty restart for a similar offence after the full-time hooter, because the game would NOT have otherwise restarted.


NOTE: For those who still don't agree, consider this; "otherwise" in this context means "if the foul play had not been committed" i.e., "the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would have re-started had the foul play not been committed.

 

[TNT88]

Also running with the logic that suggests a penalty should still be given on halfway for an offence after the 80minute mark. If they decide to take a quick tap, and score off that, and at some time between the try and the conversion someone throws a punch. You give another penalty to the attacking team on the halfway line after the conversion. They take a quick tap again...

By this stage surely a riot is about to begin? It's just not rugby.

 

[Na Madrai]

Once again, I am amazed by some of the comments on this theme. In the event of foul or dangerous play in the act of scoring a try, a penalty must be awarded if only to emphasis that such behaviour will not be tolerated. The sequence would be - award the try, allow the conversion attempt, then speak to the captain and offending player, issue card if necessary, restart with a penalty from the half-way line, play continues normally until the ball next goes dead.

If the hooter has gone, surely, and I am guessing here, that is merely an indication to the referee that time is up. In this event, play continues as above, until the ball next goes dead.

NM

 

[crossref]

Once again, I am amazed by some of the comments on this theme. In the event of foul or dangerous play in the act of scoring a try, a penalty must be awarded if only to emphasis that such behaviour will not be tolerated. The sequence would be - award the try, allow the conversion attempt, then speak to the captain and offending player, issue card if necessary, restart with a penalty from the half-way line, play continues normally until the ball next goes dead.

If the hooter has gone, surely, and I am guessing here, that is merely an indication to the referee that time is up. In this event, play continues as above, until the ball next goes dead.

NM

NM you always like to ignore the Laws if they don't seem right to you.

 

[Ian_Cook]

If the hooter has gone, surely, and I am guessing here, that is merely an indication to the referee that time is up. In this event, play continues as above, until the ball next goes dead.

NM

No. The hooter in elite matches is controlled by the official timekeeper, who keeps the elapsed time for the match. The referee's only control over time is that he signals "time off" when he requires the official timekeeper to stop the clock.

When the hooter has gone for full time then time is up, and the next time the ball goes dead, that is the end of the game. The referee cannot go back to half-way for a restart because the game was not going to otherwise restart. Law 22.17 makes that very clear.

If the foul play was sufficiently bad, then the citing officer can deal with it; in Super Rugby, the citing officer can also issue a post match YC which will go on the player's disciplinary record.

 

[crossref]

If the foul play was sufficiety bad, then the citing officer can deal with it;.

If the referee has yet to blow for no-side (ie we are waiting for the conversion to take place) then the game is not yet over and the referee is certainly still able to deal with it himself - ie issue a RC.

(agree he can't restart the game, though)