Fulltime Yellow Card

[Account Deleted]

Think of it another way;

Players are ready to kick off and one player is giving his opposite number a verbal tirade that is shocking to all listening. To say that we have no jurisdiction to control him by management, penalty & cards if required just because you have not blown your whistle to start the game, is daft.

Same applies in my opinion immediately after the game.

After all, if you have a fight after the final whistle, but no one says anything untoward to you as the referee. How can you report abuse?

Why would you report of fight as abuse? You'd reported it for what it is!
Post game can you can issue a CoC for abuse or anything that breaches the union or IRB's code of conduct rules and a post match fight would be a possible reason for a CoC.

Pre match? Well at least a RC means the player misses the game. I have heard a small number of players sent off pre-game. That makes some sense, even if it breaches the "during the game" principle. - common sense application again

Logic says, to me, since a basic tenant of a card is that a player misses either 10 minutes or the rest of the game, the "during a game" principle be applied from leaving the changing room until the final whistle. After that, a CoC covers any fine / ban side of things but dispenses with the missing the rest of the game bit. That seems more logical than sending a player from the field of play when play will no longer happen. As I said earlier you need to read the law book in context to arrive at a common sense outcome.

The end result is the same. It is just your idea seems a little "daft" in practice, to me.


The law specifically stated cards / sending offs are for "during the game" CoCs cover indefinite time periods. A player offending before a game. Clearly will impact on said game so logic would extend the referee's right to manage the game by removing the "threat" from the field. During the game the law specifically allows dismissal. After the game we have not need to remove the player from the FOP, he's leaving it anyway, so the CoC deals with the situation. So why not use the logical approach and use the tool that is most suitable for the job?

You make the reference to the FOP issue for issuing pre and post match Red cards. so what if the offence is a yard from the FOP? I'm sure we would all deal with it so the FOP bit a a little bit of a red herring. Unless you are saying that two fights take place post match on on the FOP and one a yard away from the FOP and hat you'd card players involved in the fight on the FOP but not the ones a couple of yards away.

 

[Account Deleted]

if you RC him would you expect them to play the game with 14 people?

Yes I would. It happened in RSA in a student cup final. The two team would lineup together in the tunnel and emerge together. One player decided to "sort things out" with his opposite number there and then. The game started 15 v 14.

The law does allow for pre-match actions to result in a red card of course. It is one of the few (only in the law book) stipulated Red Card offences - Law 4.5 (c).

 

[crossref]

Yes I would. It happened in RSA in a student cup final. The two team would lineup together in the tunnel and emerge together. One player decided to "sort things out" with his opposite number there and then. The game started 15 v 14.

The law does allow for pre-match actions to result in a red card of course. It is one of the few (only in the law book) stipulated Red Card offences - Law 4.5 (c).

i guess that makes sense - but if you RC someone with 22 on his back they'd argue you RC a sub, and normally if you RC a sub (let's say a sub yelled abuse at you from the sideline) then the team isn't reduced to 14.

 

[Account Deleted]

i guess that makes sense - but if you RC someone with 22 on his back they'd argue you RC a sub, and normally if you RC a sub (let's say a sub yelled abuse at you from the sideline) then the team isn't reduced to 14.

If you RC a sub pre-game then the team is down by one sub for the game.

 

[crossref]

If you RC a sub pre-game then the team is down by one sub for the game.

that's true - - but what I am getting at is that pre-game you don't really know who is in the starting 15 and who is a sub (you can't really go with the shirt numbers at grass roots level). If you RC anyone pre-game they're always going to say he was a sub.

 

[Robert Burns]

There was no Code of Conduct thing that you are referring to when I was in London, your choices were a red Card, or an Abuse form, and generally the abuse form was for when one team (or generally idiot) couldn't leave it out on the pitch and has a go at you afterwards (in changing rooms or in bar).

perhaps the WRU have always done it this way and the RFU did it different, I suppose the main point is as long as it works and the idiot gets some sort of punishment.

I've certainly seen it down in Soccer!

 

[Robert Burns]

Soccer has their laws much better laid out:

[LAWS]Only a player, substitute or substituted player may be shown the red or yellow card.
All players, substitutes and substituted players come under the jurisdiction of the referee whether they are on the field of play or not.
The use of the yellow card or red card is to give a clear indication that a sanction is being issued.

Team officials cannot be shown the red or yellow card.
If a team official is guilty of irresponsible behaviour, the referee will send the official from the technical area and its vicinity behind the boundary fences (where such a fence exists). The referee will report this conduct to the appropriate authorities.

The referee has the authority to take disciplinary sanctions, as from the moment he enters the field of play until he leaves the field of play after the final whistle. Yellow or red cards can be shown by the referee during the half-time interval.
[/LAWS]

And I love this clause (my emphasis):

[LAWS]The captain of a team has no special status or privileges under the Laws of the Game but he
has a degree of responsibility for the behaviour of his team. A player who is guilty of dissent by protesting at a referee’s decision must be cautioned.

A player who assaults a referee or who is guilty of using offensive, insulting or abusive language or gestures must be sent off.
[/LAWS]

 

[Robert Burns]

And to add more weight to my argument, IRB seem to agree:

https://www.irbpassport.com/index.php?page=forums&forum=40&thread=824&gotopage=lastpage

 

[Account Deleted]

that's true - - but what I am getting at is that pre-game you don't really know who is in the starting 15 and who is a sub (you can't really go with the shirt numbers at grass roots level). If you RC anyone pre-game they're always going to say he was a sub.

Timing! It's all a question of timing.

 

[Account Deleted]

And to add more weight to my argument, IRB seem to agree:

https://www.irbpassport.com/index.php?page=forums&forum=40&thread=824&gotopage=lastpage

I don't think that amounts to a definitive answer "probably" etc.

The WRU has had CoC for quite a while. Certainly 10 years.

The main point either way, is you don't let "him" get away with it. Whatever system is used in your area, make sure such players pay the price.

And here endeth my contribution or we will go round in circles.

 

[Robert Burns]

And to add more weight to my argument, IRB seem to agree:

https://www.irbpassport.com/index.php?page=forums&forum=40&thread=824&gotopage=lastpage

I don't think that amounts to a definitive answer "probably" etc.

The WRU has had CoC for quite a while. Certainly 10 years.

The main point either way, is you don't let "him" get away with it. Whatever system is used in your area, make sure such players pay the price.

And here endeth my contribution or we will go round in circles.

No, lets keep going, however instead of a who's right debate, how can we clear it up.

Being as clear as the Soccer law book in my opinion is best, especially as there is a massive lack of anything official on the subject.

Btw, found that Mark Lawrence on SARefs agrees with you. See, still grey. :biggrin:

 

[Account Deleted]

The solution seems simple. The IRB needs to rule. Until then go by the WRU, RFU or whichever union is "in charge" of your game. Whatever don't let them get away with it.

 

[Shelflife]

If in doubt do both, that way you have covered your ass both ways and by showing the red card you are making a clear statement to all there that an incident has happened and that you are taking it seriously.

 

[Robert Burns]

A good point!

 

[Robert Burns]

To try and help clarify it for others.

The WRU says use Code of Conduct.

What does the RFU, SRU, NZRU & IRFU say?

I'll ask the ARU today.

 

[Robert Burns]

Can confirm ARU is with ATTR, No cards after Full time, they have an incident report.

Though they did confirm that process is exactly the same, only the form that changes.

 

[Account Deleted]

If in doubt do both, that way you have covered your ass both ways and by showing the red card you are making a clear statement to all there that an incident has happened and that you are taking it seriously.

Does he get two bans?

 

[Account Deleted]

Can confirm ARU is with ATTR, No cards after Full time, they have an incident report.

Though they did confirm that process is exactly the same, only the form that changes.

Yep the process here is, effectively, the same.

 

[Pinky]

I think it is the same in Scotland, basically no cards after time, but ref abuse (or other abuse) to be reported to SRU.