Fulltime Yellow Card

[MiniRef]

Law reference?

While the game is ongoing - fair enough. But if we started pulling cards for things that happened before or after a game (but still on the playing enclosure) wouldn't that make us look a laughing stock? If it's aimed at us, then why isn't it just a Code of Conduct matter? As has been mentioned, let the Disciplinary Committee sort it out.

I don't think it makes the ref look a laughing stock - precisely the opposite. It shows that he is in charge and makes a clear statement that abuse will not be tolerated. If he simply fills in a CoC form, that's not seen by the assembled crowd.

And, in a related matter, I've been told previously that I can red card a coach after the match (one of my early matches, and mistakes, where I went to shake hands with a coach and he refused, saying that he wouldn't shake hands with a f***ing cheat; I didn't know what to do and accepted the sincere apology of his co-coach). Is this the view (that you can red card a coach)?

 

[Taff]

I don't think it makes the ref look a laughing stock - precisely the opposite. It shows that he is in charge and makes a clear statement that abuse will not be tolerated.

Sorry MiniRef but who mentioned anything about abuse being tolerated? If you feel you've been abused after the game, bang in an Abuse form ... and let the relevant authority sort it out.

... If he simply fills in a CoC form, that's not seen by the assembled crowd.

So what? It's nothing to do with the crowd. Make it obvious if you like that you are taking notes and by all means make it clear to whoever's listening that you will be reporting it. The crowd will get to hear about it soon enough after the disciplinary meeting.

I don't think it makes the ref look a laughing stock - precisely the opposite. ... And, in a related matter, I've been told previously that I can red card a coach after the match ...

But told by who? We had a thread on here not that long ago where a ref had asked if he could :norc: a player in the bar after the game. Come on, if I was in a clubhouse and the ref took umbridge at something a player had said and the referee pulled out a card (the colour is not important) I would think that I'd stepped into a Monty Python sketch.

 

[Jacko]

I would think that I'd stepped into a Monty Python sketch.

People say that about me WELL before we get back to the bar...

 

[Felk]

I hate this element of the game. I've watched the behaviour drop considerably over the last few years. I have great experience within this game but as a referee I'm as green as they come. I hope I'm strong enough to deal with gobby players. I intend to use the 10m rule a lot. As a player and especially in my captain years I used to get really angry with my own players if they lost us 10 metres/yards with loose lips.

After the game I can see being a problem. The issue is that the guy who is abusing still sees you as a figure he can abuse. If you were just two people stood in a pub he wouldn't dream of talking to you that way.

Being so green I knew nothing of abuse forms, I'm on the committee at our club and I know for sure we've never had one issued against us. I am however glad to hear they exist. Are they taken seriously ?

 

[Robert Burns]

Found it!

You'll thank me later!

My emphasis!

[LAWS]Law 10 DEFINITIONS
Foul play is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, repeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.[/LAWS]

Knew I'd used it before!

That to me gives me the ability to red card unto the point where the players leave the playing enclosure, and is not restricted to any start or stop whistle!

 

[crossref]

I did once see a referee issue a card at half time (a player came across the pitch to remonstrate with him and earned a YC), but never yet before or after the game.

if you RC someone before the game starts (let's say he pushed you over at the PMB), would the team have to start with 14?

and for a card at half time (or before the game starts) would you re-start with a PK?

 

[Dixie]

I knew nothing of abuse forms.... I am however glad to hear they exist. Are they taken seriously ?

Yes. Societies have seen soccer, and are desperate to avoid that road. Whether the abuse takes place before, during or after a game is immaterial to the outcome, but the process of getting it disciplined is different. Red card report form for when you RC; abuse form (to the CB via the Society) for when you can't. This is why you should never YC for abuse - straight red. It's one of the few things that happen in rugby that has the potential to destroy the entire game nationwide - no hyperbole. Would you referee football?

 

[Account Deleted]

Found it!

You'll thank me later!

My emphasis!

[LAWS]Law 10 DEFINITIONS
Foul play is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, repeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.[/LAWS]

Knew I'd used it before!

That to me gives me the ability to red card unto the point where the players leave the playing enclosure, and is not restricted to any start or stop whistle!

That does not say anything about red cards / sending offs:

It is also fund in the section of the Law book headed "During the match". not "During and after the match"

This bit does refer to Red cards:

10.7 PLAYER SENT OFF
"A player who is sent-off takes no further part in the match."

So, how can you take no further part in that which is over?

However, the important point in all this is that a player who abuses a referee is not "saved by the whistle". ANY abuse can and should. NO MUST be reported to the relevant union so that Disciplinary action can take its course. Whether we call it a sending off or a code of conduct is not important.

 

[Taff]

I hate this element of the game. ... After the game I can see being a problem. The issue is that the guy who is abusing still sees you as a figure he can abuse.

If it's any consolation to you, from my limited experience "abuse" is nowhere near as bad as you first fear it will be. You get the odd comment during the game, but nothing too bad. The worst I've had after a game was a spectator say "I think you need a new watch mate". He thought I'd played 2 minutes more than I should have and his teams catain should have been allowed back on before the end of the game. I was polite and said I was happy with it - he gave me a "you must be joking" type look and we went our separate ways.

That ... is also fund in the section of the Law book headed "During the match". not "During and after the match". ...... However, the important point in all this is that a player who abuses a referee is not "saved by the whistle". ANY abuse can and should. NO MUST be reported to the relevant union so that Disciplinary action can take its course. Whether we call it a sending off or a code of conduct is not important.

That's exactly how I see it. Don't tolerate abuse but what is the best way to deal with it? Personally while I can see Robert Burns' logic, I just think a CoC report is far better than pulling cards when the games over.

 

[FlipFlop]

RCs before or after a game are normally a society/federation/union thing, so can vary country to country.

Personally, happy to RC before a game - probably only while changed and on pitch or in teams changing rooom at PMB (will take no part in the game, but team play with 15, down a sub), or until I get to the changing room after the game. Outside that it is an abuse form. But will take guidance from Ref manager.

My view is - showing a red card can't hurt (file RC and abuse form), but if you only report abuse then disciplinary committee have less room to decide, and might say you should have RC'ed. And it makes clear that you viewed the abuse as RC material.

 

[didds]

and for a card at half time (or before the game starts) would you re-start with a PK?

PK at the place of where the match would restart - so presumably yes, on halfway.

didds

 

[Robert Burns]

Found it!

You'll thank me later!

My emphasis!

[LAWS]Law 10 DEFINITIONS
Foul play is anything a player does within the playing enclosure that is against the letter and spirit of the Laws of the Game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, repeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the Game.[/LAWS]

Knew I'd used it before!

That to me gives me the ability to red card unto the point where the players leave the playing enclosure, and is not restricted to any start or stop whistle!

That does not say anything about red cards / sending offs:

It is also fund in the section of the Law book headed "During the match". not "During and after the match"

This bit does refer to Red cards:

10.7 PLAYER SENT OFF
"A player who is sent-off takes no further part in the match."

So, how can you take no further part in that which is over?

However, the important point in all this is that a player who abuses a referee is not "saved by the whistle". ANY abuse can and should. NO MUST be reported to the relevant union so that Disciplinary action can take its course. Whether we call it a sending off or a code of conduct is not important.

Look at the definition of a Red card.

[LAWS]Red Card: A card, red in colour shown to a player who has been sent off for contravening Law 10 - Foul Play, Law 4.5(c).[/LAWS]

So a Red card is for a player contravening law 10, and Law 10 specifically says it applies whilst the player is within the playing enclosure.

So, IMHO, From the moment you and players are on the playing enclosure in order to start the game, to the moment you all leave, a red card is a legitimate form of punishment for contravening law 10.

What's the issue?

 

[Account Deleted]

Law 10 refers to during the match. As previously referenced see the heading of the section of the law book. Once the whistle is blown for "no-side" the match is over.

With cards after a game there is a clear problem:

YC: how do you time 10 minutes?

RC: How do you take no further part in the game following a Red Card when the game is no longer in progress?

As I said no problem, and in fact it is essential, that the transgressor is brought to book. However, to "send someone off so they take no further part in the match, a match that has no further part to take part in" is a bit daft.

We can all pick a line in the law book to justify a stance but we need to read the law book in context to get it right. I believe you are clutching at one clause and ignoring others that do not fit your process.

 

[tim White]

I am sure either the red card report or the abuse report will satisfy the disciplinary process because the content will explain briefly the circumstances.

Whatever happens, please put one in; do not leave it for next week's ref to deal with.

 

[Taff]

... What's the issue?

Law 10 refers to during the match. As previously referenced see the heading of the section of the law book. Once the whistle is blown for "no-side" the match is over. ... However, to "send someone off so they take no further part in the match, a match that has no further part to take part in" is a bit daft.

OK. A couple of straight questions:

1. Has any referee here actually given a YC or a RC after the final whistle was blown?
2. If they have, did the Disciplinary Committee question why you didn't put a CoC report in instead or did they just accept it?
3. Did any "guilty" parties get away on a technicality?

We are always being told that RC reports have to be written correctly and quoting the correct law etc, so if I was assisting the defence the first thing I would point out is that the game was over so that laws listed in the book as "During the game" couldn't apply - I accept it's a technicality, but let's be blunt they will clutch at any straw they can. If we were defending a CoC report instead, that would make things more problematic for the "defendant".

 

[crossref]

I don't think it would even occur to most referees to pull out a RC ten minutes after a match had finsihed.


but what if it was a tense match, time has expired
you blow for full time
immediately one player kicks another player's head.

my instinct here would be to pull out a RC.

 

[Robert Burns]

OK. A couple of straight questions:

1. Has any referee here actually given a YC or a RC after the final whistle was blown?
2. If they have, did the Disciplinary Committee question why you didn't put a CoC report in instead or did they just accept it?
3. Did any "guilty" parties get away on a technicality?

We are always being told that RC reports have to be written correctly and quoting the correct law etc, so if I was assisting the defence the first thing I would point out is that the game was over so that laws listed in the book as "During the game" couldn't apply - I accept it's a technicality, but let's be blunt they will clutch at any straw they can. If we were defending a CoC report instead, that would make things more problematic for the "defendant".

Yes,

I had a player remonstrate with my decisions in a way that I would not tolerate a few moments after the final whistle. i told the player to calm down and he didn't so I showed the red card.

I used the above law (in those days I don't believe the during the game, etc, header were present) and my report was accepted, upheld and the player received a 3 week suspension from playing.

I was also taught as a referee in London (By DB) that whilst on the pitch, a Red card was to be used to punish a player that could not control their feelings well enough/started a fight after the final whistle. Once in the changing rooms, the abuse form was the way to go.

The old myth that you can still red card them in the bar, was a great deterrent, and was probably the case until abuse forms were created.

I have never had a problem applying that principle.

 

[Robert Burns]

Think of it another way;

Players are ready to kick off and one player is giving his opposite number a verbal tirade that is shocking to all listening. To say that we have no jurisdiction to control him by management, penalty & cards if required just because you have not blown your whistle to start the game, is daft.

Same applies in my opinion immediately after the game.

After all, if you have a fight after the final whistle, but no one says anything untoward to you as the referee. How can you report abuse?

 

[crossref]

Think of it another way;

Players are ready to kick off and one player is giving his opposite number a verbal tirade that is shocking to all listening. To say that we have no jurisdiction to control him by management, penalty & cards if required just because you have not blown your whistle to start the game, is daft.

if you RC him would you expect them to play the game with 14 people?

 

[Account Deleted]

OK. A couple of straight questions:

1. Has any referee here actually given a YC or a RC after the final whistle was blown?
2. If they have, did the Disciplinary Committee question why you didn't put a CoC report in instead or did they just accept it?
3. Did any "guilty" parties get away on a technicality?

We are always being told that RC reports have to be written correctly and quoting the correct law etc, so if I was assisting the defence the first thing I would point out is that the game was over so that laws listed in the book as "During the game" couldn't apply - I accept it's a technicality, but let's be blunt they will clutch at any straw they can. If we were defending a CoC report instead, that would make things more problematic for the "defendant".

I've never issued a post match red. Nor have I needed to issue a CoC. I have heard of RCs being issued post game, and the DC dismissing them on a technicality. There again I've heard of a DC that said "Had you issued a RC instead of a CoC a longer ban was possible. So clearly there are doubts both ways here