General Kicking

the magpie


Referees in Australia
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
93
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
This got brought up in another forum, but not really answered, so I thought I'd throw this out to the learned members of this forum.

Where in the LotG is it defined what a kick is?

Also, there is an old thing that referees look for, in that the drop out of the hands for a kick has to be deliberate, and have seen numerous referees award knock ons where the player has dropped the ball, but managed to kick it before it reaches the dirt. Is this correct?

Any help is appreciated.:confused:
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
15,672
Post Likes
1,936
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Where in the LotG is it defined what a kick is?

In the definitions.

[LAWS]Kick: A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel,
from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible
distance out of the hand, or along the ground.[/LAWS]
 

MrQeu

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
440
Post Likes
37
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
That is the definition of a kick, but it doesn't say that a kick in general play is legal. IIRC, on the other hand, nowhere is stated that it is illegal, so I'd say is legal because of silence procedure ("qui tacet consentire videtur").
 

Ricardowensleydale

Player or Coach
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
413
Post Likes
20
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
That is the definition of a kick, but it doesn't say that a kick in general play is legal. IIRC, on the other hand, nowhere is stated that it is illegal, .

Looking at the knock-on law "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward," the kick from hand in open play should be illegal. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is or should be, just that the laws are poorly written.
 

4eyesbetter


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
1,320
Post Likes
86
Ah, grasshopper; but have you lost possession, or have you voluntarily given it away?
 

Ricardowensleydale

Player or Coach
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
413
Post Likes
20
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Ah, grasshopper; but have you lost possession, or have you voluntarily given it away?

If I have a £1 and voluntarily put it in a charity box I think we can all agree that I have lost possession of it. I can't get it back. If i did try there would be a :norc: penalty. Go straight to jail, do not pass go ,do not collect £200
 

The Fat


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
4,204
Post Likes
496
Looking at the knock-on law "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward," the kick from hand in open play should be illegal. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is or should be, just that the laws are poorly written.

The way the law is written is fine. You have left off the last part of the definition that states that it is a knock on if the ball touches another player or the ground before the original player can catch it again.
 

Ricardowensleydale

Player or Coach
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
413
Post Likes
20
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
The way the law is written is fine. You have left off the last part of the definition that states that it is a knock on if the ball touches another player or the ground before the original player can catch it again.

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

So ignoring the "OR" statements it's "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it." This would include any kick from hand that touched the ground. All grubber kicks are illegal. As i said I'm not suggesting that they are or should be just that the laws should be written better.
 

the magpie


Referees in Australia
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
93
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
That is the definition of a kick, but it doesn't say that a kick in general play is legal. IIRC, on the other hand, nowhere is stated that it is illegal, so I'd say is legal because of silence procedure ("qui tacet consentire videtur").

Law 7 says you're allowed to kick.
[LAWS]Any player may throw it or kick it.[/LAWS]
 

Robert Burns

, Referees in Canada, RugbyRefs.com Webmaster
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
9,650
Post Likes
7
Nothing in the law says the kick has to be deliberate.

As a referee I am not looking for ways to stop the game, but to keep it going, if they release the ball (deliberately or not) and then manage to get a part of their leg to it which is permitted to be classed as a kick, play on!

Don't get all particular about being lost forward, remember clear and obvious. Not marginal and pedantic.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,628
Post Likes
1,755
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Nothing in the law says the kick has to be deliberate.

As a referee I am not looking for ways to stop the game, but to keep it going, if they release the ball (deliberately or not) and then manage to get a part of their leg to it which is permitted to be classed as a kick, play on!

Don't get all particular about being lost forward, remember clear and obvious. Not marginal and pedantic.

I disagree. Again, look for intent
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,229
Post Likes
354
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Thank you, Robert Burns, for judging on fact not intent.
 

Davet

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,731
Post Likes
3
Looking at the knock-on law "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward," the kick from hand in open play should be illegal. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is or should be, just that the laws are poorly written.

The way the law is written is fine. You have left off the last part of the definition that states that it is a knock on if the ball touches another player or the ground before the original player can catch it again.

Remember to distinguish between a knock on and a throw forward.

You can recover a ball knocked forward, but you cannot do so with a ball thrown forward.

Consider the difference between intercepting a pass by knocking the ball forward and then catching it before it touches anyone or the floor, and throwing the ball forward over an opponents head and then catching it.
 

stuart3826


Referees in England
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
962
Post Likes
0
SWEEPSTAKE How many replies can this fred reach? My punt (pun intented) would be 825:hap:
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
SWEEPSTAKE How many replies can this fred reach? My punt (pun intented) would be 825:hap:

the discussion on whether, in the Laws, we are really allowed to kick it is rather arcane.

but the discussions about

(a) player loses the ball forward and it happens to hit his toe before it hits the ground..

(b) player loses the ball forward but before it hits the ground he cleverly manages to poke a toe at it...


Are good --

Personally I would call a knock-on for both (a) and (b).
but many here would class (b) as a kick (and indeed a clever and skilled recovery by the player). Some might even allow (a)

That's an interesting inconsistency between refs
 

Davet

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,731
Post Likes
3
Fine, next time you see a player kick the ball from hand call a scrum.

Then never ref again.

Or you may consider that a throw forward is specifically illegal, whilst a kick forward is not - if it isn't banned it's legal.
 

Ricardowensleydale

Player or Coach
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
413
Post Likes
20
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Fine, next time you see a player kick the ball from hand call a scrum.

Then never ref again.

Or you may consider that a throw forward is specifically illegal, whilst a kick forward is not - if it isn't banned it's legal.

No-one in their right mind thinks that you should not be able to kick the ball forward. The issue is that the laws are unclear. Just because everyone knows what the laws should be doesn't make them so. The reason the laws should accurately reflect the way the game is actually played is so that the ref has somewhere to go when he see's "sharp practice". This thread started in a conversation about heading the ball. If the laws don't clearly and accurately explain what kicking is and is not allowed how can we expect clarity on heading?
 
Top