Handles

[Womble]

No I'm not taking the p*ss! This year the shirts seem to be even tighter! What are the pro's and con's of the props having handles sewn onto their shirts where the opposition prop should bind, or maybe make them have a baggy patch of cloth at about the same area!

 

[Simon Thomas]

Totally agree with this props shirt's target patch concept which has been discussed a couple of times on here in the past.

If the oppo's hand is not there it is an illegal bind - simples !

And make it mandatory at Premiership and International level too and suprise suprise we may find a lot of the current elite scrum issues may disappear !

 

[OB..]

Patches, yes in theory. Practical problems at low levels.

Handles, never.

 

[andyscott]

Handles no, as they increase injury risk in the rest of the game, like wrist bands and jewellery.

Patches yes, well if props bind on the back with a flat hand, the scrum would not collapse, but they also couldnt twist in and screw the other prop (which they all seem to like). It would make for a more stable scrum.

 

[Davet]

Patches, yes in theory. Practical problems at low levels.

Possibly but just put the patch on all shirts, props, backs - everyone.

 

[Simon Thomas]

with modern shirt materials and colour printing techniques I cannot see a major issue in placing appropriate black (or silver or whatever) squares at time of manufacture, on four or five shirts per set for #1, #2, #3 plus #16 & #17.

 

[Womble]

I'm not thinking as a referee here ( allthough it would help us greatly) but as a player. Yes I've played in the front row and the tightness of the shirts is becoming a big problem for the players to get a good bind on. LH and TH would need them in different places I know... It was just a thought, Any shirt manufacturers post on here? might design some prototypes

 

[The Fat]

There were a couple of teams in the NH last season (can't recall comp HC/AP/FT14/Rabo12 & yes I know, I should get out more), whose shirts were definitely "looser" fit than the the other 98% and it did'nt seem to affect their performance or look "unfashionable".
Anyone else notice this as well or do I have to go digging somewhere to find an example?

 

[Dave Sherwin]

As an ex academy front row player, I have been banging this drum for a number of years. The ability to get a decent bind on the opposite prop's side or back is such a critical part of the scrum biomechanics that I am convinced that requiring props to have loose-fitting shirts would significantly reduce the number of collapses. The truth is that even top front rows don't really enjoy collapses and their attendant dangers, so although some are tactical, a number result simply from unintentionally missed binds.

The problem is that it is a law draftsman's nightmare, and it's not as if the IRB has prove itself replete with skilled draftsmen in recent times. Perhaps something very general, requiring that 'both props must wear shirts which have sufficient excess material around the armpit, side and upper back area to permit their opposite number to gain a secure and clean bind without difficulty' would suffice but I fear it could lead to all sorts of technical debates.

 

[Taff]

with modern shirt materials and colour printing techniques I cannot see a major issue in placing appropriate black (or silver or whatever) squares at time of manufacture, on four or five shirts per set for #1, #2, #3 plus #16 & #17.

Exactly. Have a brightly coloured patch (on a slightly looser shirt) so that it stands out if not being bound onto. Eg if the Ref can see a yellow square, then the binding is wrong.

 

[crossref]

Exactly. Have a brightly coloured patch (on a slightly looser shirt) so that it stands out if not being bound onto. Eg if the Ref can see a yellow square, then the binding is wrong.

that helps with positioning of the bind
it doesn't help with the too-tight-to-get-grip problem though.

 

[andyscott]

If both props hand there hands in the correct position high and long, you could do it naked!! You dont need lots of material. sure you couldnt scrag you oppo inside out, but it would be legal.

Its amazing thats 2 quick PKs and 2 yellow cards sorts out the scrum collapses without changing the shirts for baggy ones, for patches, just works, crazy isnt it.

Go hard on the scrum early doors and follow up warnings, watch how well it improves.

 

[Taff]

that helps with positioning of the bind. it doesn't help with the too-tight-to-get-grip problem though.

But combined with the "slightly looser shirt" it would help a lot IMO. You don't want the shirt too loose, but loose enough to get a grip.

 

[crossref]

The truth is that even top front rows don't really enjoy collapses and their attendant dangers, so although some are tactical, a number result simply from unintentionally missed binds.
.

why don't they wear looser shirts then?

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Because if the opponent misses the bind there's a good chance of winning a penalty, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to make it easy for the opponent. I'm not convinced many elite front row players would get much sympathy from management if they were to ask for looser shirts on the basis it would make it easier for the opponent to get a bind, even if this was coupled with a pleading look and a mention of the dangers of a collapsed scrum.

 

[Robert Burns]

I'm not thinking as a referee here ( allthough it would help us greatly) but as a player. Yes I've played in the front row and the tightness of the shirts is becoming a big problem for the players to get a good bind on. LH and TH would need them in different places I know... It was just a thought, Any shirt manufacturers post on here? might design some prototypes

Sort of, we have a partnership with Akuma (Phil E is meeting them today for some pictures) they may be interested in prototyping.

 

[Womble]

I was thinking something along the lines of keeping the tight fit shirt (cus thats what the players like) On the looseheads shirt from the left armpit down to about 12" some sort of loose cloth patch going around about a quarter of the back ( so about 10" to 12" square) this would allow for a standard shirt but also allow for different arm lengths of our various sized guys. The tight head would have the opposite.

 

[crossref]

I was thinking something along the lines of keeping the tight fit shirt (cus thats what the players like) On the looseheads shirt from the left armpit down to about 12" some sort of loose cloth patch going around about a quarter of the back ( so about 10" to 12" square) this would allow for a standard shirt but also allow for different arm lengths of our various sized guys. The tight head would have the opposite.

I'd have it on both left and right sides. At community level having special props shirts would be inconvenient to manage - I would at least want them to be interchangable.

 

[Womble]

I was trying to future proof the shirt but yes both sides is a good idea, the tight fit is to try to stop the tackler grabbing the shirt so would like to keep as much of the shirt tight fit (the lion sleeps tonightepper as pos

 

[Robert Burns]

I agree, it would have to be both sides, and strong enough not to rip, so as to require a new shirt three times a game because I am sure the oppo will complain to the ref when the patch isn't there.

You'll then have teams that will sew it up a bit more so it's not quite as flappy as others, which then leads to more complaints. What if they run out of that type of shirt, does that mean uncontested scrums? if it is wet, perhaps teams making there patch damp with some sort of lubricant to remove ability to hold...

I like the theory, but I'm not sure of it's practice in a real competitive game.