Illegal kick, Knock on, or play on

[wilksy]

Refereeing a charity 7's tournament on the weekend (so decision not controversial) and made the following decision:

Red scrum half passes to red outside half. The red outside half kicks the ball on (before catching) using his leg above the knee. Red outside half chases his own kick to score a try.

I call them back for a knock on and award scrum to Blue team.

Everyone looked bemused at the decision but accepted it. They did ask would the same happen if it hit their chest, which made me wonder? Does the definition of a kick apply to a player who doesn't handle the ball?.....

 

[Account Deleted]

Which player knocked on and where did you make the mark for the scrum?

 

[The umpire]

I think the incorrect kick can only apply to player with it in his hands first. Off the chest, head or anything not hand or arm wouldn't be a ko.

 

[chopper15]

It wasn't a 'kick' or a knock-on. TRY.:clap:

 

[Davet]

It's not a kick, but neither is it a knock on.

If he had been carrying the ball and then kneed it forward that would be classed as a knock-on, I think there is an iRB ruling - but as described he wasn't the ball carrier, and kicking, kneeing, chesting or heading the ball are all legal - it's only a knock on if it's off the hand or arm.

So - no knock on - good try.

 

[Robert Burns]

It wasn't a 'kick' or a knock-on. TRY.:clap:

By Jove he's got it!

 

[Simon Thomas]

It wasn't a 'kick' or a knock-on. TRY.:clap:

:bday: :bday: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[wilksy]

Oh well, as soon as I gave it, I doubted myself. At least it was a learning curve in a non-contentious setting.

I was hoping the ball would run dead so I wouldn't have had to make the decision....

The thing which swayed the decision at the time was the intention to play / kick the ball but have been looking for advice to no avail since in the Law book.

 

[Taff]

If he had been carrying the ball and then kneed it forward that would be classed as a knock-on, I think there is an iRB ruling - but as described he wasn't the ball carrier, and kicking, kneeing, chesting or heading the ball are all legal - it's only a knock on if it's off the hand or arm.

I don't understand the highlited bit. An iRB ruling makes it clear that kneeing the ball forward is a knock-on. Not being funny, but what difference does it make whether he was carrying it or not? My point is, if it's a knock-on while being carried, why isn't it still a knock-on while being "volleyed" off the knee? :chin:

 

[Davet]

The law book gives good advice - it defines a knock on quite clearly.

I accept that it doesn't define all those things that aren't a knock on - but probably because that may be a long long list..

Sometimes we expect too much of a Law book...

 

[Davet]

Taff

Can you quote the ruling - as far as I'm aware it refers to a player kneeing rather than kicking, when the player is "kicking" from hand.

 

[Taff]

Can you quote the ruling - as far as I'm aware it refers to a player kneeing rather than kicking, when the player is "kicking" from hand.

Ruling 10/2004

Ruling10-2004

(2) A player in possession of the ball drops it onto his thigh and propels it forward. What is the correct decision?

Ruling of the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
(2) If this occurred in general play the following would apply. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'. In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward. If the action as described was taken by a player after his team had been awarded a penalty kick or free kick, then a PK or FK has not been correctly taken. Under Law 21.3(b) bouncing the ball on the thigh can in this case be taken to include the knee as this is also in the definition above. Thus, the player has infringed this Law and a scrum to the opposing team should be ordered.

Does the kicking from hand or in open play matter? I don't understand why one is a knock-on an the exact same action in open play isn't. Thinking about it even more, but does the "clarification" muddy the waters? The sanction for a knock-on is a scrum. The sanction for a throw forward is a PK.

 

[Davet]

Ruling10-2004

(2) A player in possession of the ball drops it onto his thigh and propels it forward. What is the correct decision?

Ruling of the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
(2) If this occurred in general play the following would apply. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'. In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward. If the action as described was taken by a player after his team had been awarded a penalty kick or free kick, then a PK or FK has not been correctly taken. Under Law 21.3(b) bouncing the ball on the thigh can in this case be taken to include the knee as this is also in the definition above. Thus, the player has infringed this Law and a scrum to the opposing team should be ordered.

Thanks.

It does relate to a player in possesion - in the case of the OP the player was not in possession and this doesn't apply.

 

[crossref]

so

- if a loose ball comes toward you and you head it / chest it / thigh it forwards, then this is NOT a knock on, and you play on (but any player in front of you is in an offside position)

- but if you were carrying the ball , and you threw it up into air, or let go of it, and headed it / chested it / thighed it forwards... that's a knock on. (possibly one of chopper's deliberate knock ons that he worries about)

 

[chopper15]

Of course the law lords are assuming that the ball-carrier is facing and moving towards his opponent's goal-line. :hap:

 

[Robert Burns]

Unless you catch it again, then it's not a knock on, it's just unsporting.

 

[Taff]

It does relate to a player in possesion - in the case of the OP the player was not in possession and this doesn't apply.

so - if a loose ball comes toward you and you thigh it forwards, then this is NOT a knock on, and you play on - but if you were carrying the ball , and you ... let go of it, and .. thighed it forwards... that's a knock on.

I still don't see what the difference is. If one is a knock-on, why isn't the other?

It does say "If this occurred in general play the following would apply. ... In the case described the ball has ... been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward."

 

[Davet]

so

- if a loose ball comes toward you and you head it / chest it / thigh it forwards, then this is NOT a knock on, and you play on (but any player in front of you is in an offside position)

Correct

- but if you were carrying the ball , and you threw it up into air, or let go of it, and headed it / chested it / thighed it forwards... that's a knock on. (possibly one of chopper's deliberate knock ons that he worries about)

The ruling only relates to the use of the thigh.

But by extension what you say is not unreasonable, and I would normally expect to see it pinged.

 

[Davet]

I still don't see what the difference is. If one is a knock-on, why isn't the other?

It does say "If this occurred in general play the following would apply. ... In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward."

Don't quote selectively - you need a holistic view.

"if this occurred in general play"

this relates to a player in possession of the ball dropping it onto his thigh.
general play relates to general play as opposed to specific phases such as PK or FK, which are detailed later in the ruling.

It's all about what constitutes a kick - when a kick is required. ie a PK FK or kick out of hand.

When a kick is not required, as in the case described, then the definition of a kick is irrelevant.

 

[Phil E]

I still don't see what the difference is. If one is a knock-on, why isn't the other?

It does say "If this occurred in general play the following would apply. ... In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward."

No it hasn't actually.

Red scrum half passes to red outside half. The red outside half kicks the ball on (before catching) using his leg above the knee

It hasn't come off the kickers hands first, so it isn't a knock on.