Intercept attempt batted forward and then caught.

[damo]

I would be interested to hear if there is a broad consensus for the advice offered by SAReferees in the following clip:

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830124/

The relevant clip is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rrtpoc5IZ9o


The general thrust of their argument is that because was caught it cannot be a knock-on. Since it wasn't a knock-on it cannot be a deliberate knock-on.

Watching the clip, I am not at all convinced that "[w]hat Petersen did was clearly unintentional". It looks to me like has deliberately tried to thrust the ball forward and then catch it. In my mind that is a penalty, irrespective of whether he subsequently catches it or not.

Getting away from the specifics of this video, are we of the mind that when a player sticks out his hand at a pass and the ball ricochets forward and subsequently caught (by the same player) it should be play on? In other words, do we accept the premise that what is not a knock-on cannot be a deliberate knock-on?

 

[OB..]

The general thrust of their argument is that because was caught it cannot be a knock-on. Since it wasn't a knock-on it cannot be a deliberate knock-on.

That argument is false. 12.1 (e) does not refer to a knock-on. It refers to an intentional knock forward. PK whether he catches the ball or not.

Quite apart from any legalistic argument, allowing it would simply bring in the Aussie Rules hand pass and destroy a major tenet of the game. Therefore that interpretation must be rejected.

 

[smeagol]

I vehemently disagree with the interpretation that he tried to catch it cleanly.

My rule of thumb: if he's reaching with one hand, he's not looking to catch it cleanly. If it goes forwards, PK. Backwards, he got lucky.

 

[talbazar]

Guys,
To me this is fully legal... Based a two things:

First the law definition:
[LAWS]DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.[/LAWS]


Second:
If the ball was coming backwards from one of Petersen's team mate (a legal pass to Petersen) and he did the exact same thing, would you blow a PK for deliberate knock forward?
Seriously?
I'm ready to bet an arm you wouldn't even think about it...


Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[damo]

I vehemently disagree with the interpretation that he tried to catch it cleanly.

My rule of thumb: if he's reaching with one hand, he's not looking to catch it cleanly. If it goes forwards, PK. Backwards, he got lucky.

So you would have PK'ed this one? I want to, but only if that is the accepted practice. Statements like this from SAReferees make me unsure of what the consensus is.

 

[winchesterref]

Interesting, I would probably have allowed this during the game based on the knock on definition. However you've got me questioning it! I'm trying to work out why- maybe if he knocked it up and slightly forwards I would let go as not "a clear deliberate knock on". If he bats it miles forwards then an obvious deliberate knock on?

 

[Davet]

We're back to Grammar and commas here.

In 1998 the Law book for Law 17 (which was the one that covered knocks-on) read:

A knock-on occurs when the ball travels forward towards the direction of the opponents' dead ball line after:-
- a player loses possession of it: or
- a player propels or strikes it with his hand or arm: or
- it strikes a players hand or arm and touches the ground or another player before it is recovered by the player
This is the precise punctuation.

The bit about the ball striking the ground is clearly related to the last bullet point only - and thus a player deliberately knocking the ball forward was illegal even if he did then catch it cleanly. - and this preciesly matched the prohibition on a deliberate throw forward which did the same thing. You could not tjrow or knock the ball forward then regather and not break the Law.

The current Law - with its repunctuation of that Law viz:
DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.


Specifically the comma highlighted changes the application of the final clause in the sentence. Remove that comma and we have the original meaning restored. Thogh as per the Grammer thread such a comma is very slender object to hang a significant meaning on.

But the Law was not advertised as having been changed in the 2000 rewrite - "The Laws of the game made easier" - which introduced the current numbering system (eg Knock-on was law 17 is now Law 12). But because of the rewrite a mismatch seems to have crept into peoples understanding.

It now seems that some people feel that while the Law says you can't throw forward to yourself, you can knock forward to yourself. With which I do not agree.

 

[FlipFlop]

Seriously? Play on all day long.

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

The ball has to actually has to touch something before it is a knock on. Juggle it, do what you want with it, but until another player or the ground touch it, then play on.

 

[Davet]

Flip Flop

If that's so the consider these two scenarios:

a) Player throws the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around him, catches the ball and runs off with it

b) Player knocks the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around him, catches the ball and runs off with it


If b) is legal then players can hand pass to themselves by knocking the ball which is help in one hand with the other, and regathering cleanly.

 

[FlipFlop]

Passing the ball forward is different - that is judged on the hand motion. A player in control, who chooses to throw it forward, it is a forward pass. This is why the forward pass and the knock on have different definitions, and a re judged by different criteria.

A player loses control and it then goes over a player, or a player who knocks a ball over a player, yes if they catch it they can continue. But liable to be tackled. And if the other player touches the ball, then the knock-on is given.

Wasn't it Simpson who was tackled after a knock forward, where it was deemed he was liable to be tackled, and then the ball hit the ground and the knock on given. If he had caught it - and fallen on the ground, you would award the knock on rather than the try?

At what point is a juggle not allowed in your world? A few mm off the hand, and missed catch, the throw up and re-catch when dummy kicking?...... In my world it is simple - player can juggle the ball all they like, but until the definition in law is met (other player or ground) - then it can't be a knock on. (note we are talking knock ons, not forward passes - they are different).

 

[winchesterref]

Tim Stimpson/Andre Vos. Is there a video of this anywhere?

 

[crossref]

seems to me

- you can 'save' an accidental knock forwards by catching it before it hits the ground
- you can't 'save' a deliberate knock forwards by catching it before it hits the ground


Yes, you have to judge intent.
But you always have to judge intent with a knock forward, as an accidental one is a scrum, a deliberate one is a PK

I concur with the view above that SARefs is wrong in law.
And also wrong in this instance as to me it looked pretty deliberate (but that's a matter of opinion of course)

 

[Dixie]

That argument is false. 12.1 (e) does not refer to a knock-on. It refers to an intentional knock forward. PK whether he catches the ball or not.

Let's look at that legalistic argument. law 12 is very short - it comprises only the definitions and law 12.1. The law has a title: Knock-on and Throw Forward. The definitions define two things: the knock-on and the throw forward. 12.1 a) to d) deal unambiguously with knocks-on and throws forward. The first hint that this may not be all that the law covers appears in 12.1(e), where the undefined term "knock forward" is intimated. There are two possibilities here: that the knock forward is somehow different from the knock-on; or that the lawmakers intended to reference the knock-on, but carelessly allowed a different phrase to slip into the text. My own view is that the latter occurred. Let's examine the siutaiton if I am wrong and OB is correct.

If this is done deliberately, a penalty is awarded. However, if it is done accidentally, it doesn't seem to be an offence. Nothing in Law 12 awards any sanction for the accidental knock forward (assuming it to be a different thing than a knock-on). Outside of foul play, this is probably unique - which is a good reason to doubt its accuracy. Further, OB has frequently opined that it is legal to tackle a player juggling the ball because the player is in possession of that ball. His reading of Law 12.1(e) makes it a PK offence to be deliberately in possession of the ball in a particular way - which is also, I think, unique. One unique circumstance may raise an eyebrow. Two looks like misinterpretation.

I used to play in the centre. While not common, it was also not rare to receive a pass that was too far ahead of me to catch cleanly with both hands. In such circumstances, I tended to stick out my outside hand in the hope of stopping the ball, while immediately after reaching forward with the inside hand to try to gather the ball. Sometimes this would work; more often, I would fail and knock on. I think OB's interpretation would make this a PK offence regardless of the outcome. Given my forward momentum, the probability is that the initial contact with the hand propelled the ball slightly forward. I suspect that preventing this interpetation may have been an intention of the 2000 rewrite Davet mentions - i.e. accurately codifying what the imperfect law at the time should have said (and what everyone knew) but which it did not definitively say.

So I'm with SA refs. Davet worries about the Aussie Rules hand pass. I suggest could pragmatically be considered a pass forward to oneself. As such, it fits the definition of a throw forward:

[LAWS]A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.[/LAWS]

To me, that does a lot less injury to the integrity of the laws of the game than does the idea that 12.1(e) introduces a penalty offence for an undefined action that is not otherwise illegal and which falls outside the scope of the title of the law introducing it.

 

[Taff]

Seriously? Play on all day long.

Interesting, I would probably have allowed this during the game based on the knock on definition.

Same here. I would have given that try.

.... And also wrong in this instance as to me it looked pretty deliberate (but that's a matter of opinion of course)

TBH I reckon it all happened so fast he wouldn't have had time to think. He went for the interception (instinctively and one-handedly maybe, but he did go for it) and caught it before the ball hit the ground. Good skills - play on as far as I'm concerned.

.... The ball has to actually has to touch something before it is a knock on. Juggle it, do what you want with it, but until another player or the ground touch it, then play on.

Not quite though surely. You can't throw it forward and catch it before it touches the ground.

 

[Davet]

So you are accepting that the Law was changed in 2000 - contrary to the statement issued at the time that the laws were not being changed just made simpler.

 

[Dixie]

You can't throw it forward and catch it before it touches the ground.

But that is a throw forward - which is a different thing from a knock-on. It's important to get these differences clear in your mind.

 

[crossref]

In such circumstances, I tended to stick out my outside hand in the hope of stopping the ball, while immediately after reaching forward with the inside hand to try to gather the ball. Sometimes this would work; more often, I would fail and knock on

has this ever been caught on video and uploaded to youtube? (hopefully)

 

[Dixie]

In 1998 the Law book for Law 17 (which was the one that covered knocks-on) read:

A knock-on occurs when the ball travels forward towards the direction of the opponents' dead ball line after:-
- a player loses possession of it: or
- a player propels or strikes it with his hand or arm: or
- it strikes a players hand or arm and touches the ground or another player before it is recovered by the player

I suspect that preventing this interpetation may have been an intention of the 2000 rewrite Davet mentions - i.e. accurately codifying what the imperfect law at the time should have said (and what everyone knew) but which it did not definitively say.

So you are accepting that the Law was changed in 2000 - contrary to the statement issued at the time that the laws were not being changed just made simpler.

We know that the law was changed, because it was written differently after the rewrite than before it. The question is rather whether that change altered what the law meant.

In my view, the original text did not accurately state what was accepted as law throughout the game - i.e. that juggling the ball in a forward direction while trying to catch it was not an offence. If you read the 1998 text you provided, you will see that it is possible to infer from it that such juggling constitutes a knock-on. Experience informs me that it was never refereed thus. So I conclude that the earlier text was imperfect, allowing an inference and interpretation that was neither intended nor generally applied. The re-write provided a better text that had no effect on the general application of the law on the field, but which actually said something quite different from its predecessor text - it accurately reflected what the law truly was, both before and after the rewrite.

- - - Updated - - -

has this ever been caught on video and uploaded to youtube? (hopefully)

If it was ever caught on video, it would have been on Betamax format and the cameraman has probably died of the resulting hernia.

 

[Davet]

Dixie
Juggling has always been an attempt to catch a ball, and happens when the ball isn't caught first time, there is a bit of a fumble and the ball is then safely in hand. My recollection is that this was always the exception that proved the rule.

Your interpretation seems to enable the hand pass to oneself.

If a player has the ball in one hand, then uses the other to propel the ball over and past an opponent and regathers it, would you allow it?

If instead he threw the ball over the head of that opponent and regathered it, would you allow it?

 

[pedr]

At full speed that looks just about ok as an attempt to catch the ball.

On the other hand I've always thought Trinh-Duc's try against Wales in 2010 should have been a penalty for a deliberate knock forward/knock-on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW_3WefLSds#t=44m54s - even if the first bat forward is ok, the second clearly deliberately propels the ball forward in order to be able to catch it, rather than being an attempt in itself to catch the ball.