Intercept attempt batted forward and then caught.

[Dixie]

Davet worries about the Aussie Rules hand pass. I suggest could pragmatically be considered a pass forward to oneself. As such, it fits the definition of a throw forward:

[LAWS]A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.[/LAWS]

To me, that does a lot less injury to the integrity of the laws of the game than does the idea that 12.1(e) introduces a penalty offence for an undefined action that is not otherwise illegal and which falls outside the scope of the title of the law introducing it.

Dixie
...

Your interpretation seems to enable the hand pass to oneself.

If a player has the ball in one hand, then uses the other to propel the ball over and past an opponent and regathers it, would you allow it?

If instead he threw the ball over the head of that opponent and regathered it, would you allow it?

I refer the questioner to my earlier answer

 

[Davet]

Yes I saw what you wrote earlier.

The Law carefully differentiates a knock from a throw, you want to blend them together.

The handpass in Aussie rules is specifically because a player cannot throw the ball, but is allowed to knock it.

In what way does a knock forward become a throw forward?

Note: Definitions, Pass = Throw to another player

 

[Dixie]

I haven't suggested that my preference here is ideal - merely that it is the best that can be done without doing too much violence to the existing laws. I feel that when faced with two imperfect choices, it is better to conflate a knock with a pass, than to invent a penalty offence for an undefined action that is not illegal when done accidentally and which falls outside the scope of the law allegedly imposing it. Do you disagree?

Note: Definitions, Pass = Throw to another player

True. But sometimes, a player in receipt of a hospital pass will, without actually catching it, bat it along to the next man in the line who is under less pressure. It may not be technically a pass, but it does quack like one. Does it matter?

 

[smeagol]

So you would have PK'ed this one? I want to, but only if that is the accepted practice. Statements like this from SAReferees make me unsure of what the consensus is.

Clearly there is no accepted practice, but I have PK'd this in the past.

In my view, he's not looking to catch it first-time.

 

[Davet]

Dixie

I think we are actually saying the same thing.

If you juggle while catching we will not interpret that as a knock on. If you deliberately bat the ball forward and then regather, especially when you do that to avoid a tackle, then you will be penalised.

We seem to get there by different routes - you conflate two separate laws under specific circumstance, whereas I allow an exception to a Law to cover an inadvertantly extended catching process.

The end result I think would be same, so I'm not going to worry about the route.

 

[Browner]

At full speed that looks just about ok as an attempt to catch the ball.

On the other hand I've always thought Trinh-Duc's try against Wales in 2010 should have been a penalty for a deliberate knock forward/knock-on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW_3WefLSds#t=44m54s - even if the first bat forward is ok, the second clearly deliberately propels the ball forward in order to be able to catch it, rather than being an attempt in itself to catch the ball.

As does Finlay Calder here Lions 1989 .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yyhc_nugarE#t=4483s
I can't imagine many referees would ever call either of these as knock forwards [deliberate or otherwise]

Should the LoTG allign with what happens in reality, or should the rugby world be educated to accept these as knock forward's?

I favour the view that 'deliberately knocking/hitting the ball forward within a bonafide attempt to gather possession of it' should become a permitted exception.

Saying it depends on how the ref sees it, isn't enough IMO, guidance is clearly required, or we wouldn't have so many differing opinions from intelligent people being offered up.

************
On a tangent,

what if the Attacker [advancing at 15mph] seeing a fast advancing defender throws the ball up in the air [perfectly timed] as per this example http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=box08lq9ylg#t=115s [which hangs in the air long enough for the for the fast advancing defender [also arriving at 15mph] to run straight under the airborne ball, once the defender has run under the ball the attacker then brakes sharply & leans back to collect the ball as it falls from above [under the relative velocity/momentum principle]

Hypothetical I know, & I can't find a vid example, this is the nearest , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg&feature=player_detailpage#t=13s

 

[Browner]

I vehemently disagree with the interpretation that he tried to catch it cleanly.

My rule of thumb: if he's reaching with one hand, he's not looking to catch it cleanly. If it goes forwards, PK. Backwards, he got lucky.

IME rarely do players intercept with two hands, so my rule of thumb is ...... receiving hand is facing up = Benefit of doubt, otherwise PK.

 

[MrQeu]

So, what about O'Driscoll self pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

 

[Browner]

So, what about O'Driscoll self pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

Imaginative for sure , but thrown forward & deliberately. so as much as i admire the invention, PK.
However, if he'd thrown it backwards then applause.

 

[crossref]

So, what about O'Driscoll self pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

that was forwards in both sense of the word, by the absolute view and by the momentum view.
and it was also deliberate

so it's a PK.

 

[Blackberry]

Just to be clear, a knock on does not need to have touched the ground, right?

This might be one of those elephants in a room which new refs are not aware of.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

For me it has to touch the ground, a player or be knocked over an oppo player otherwise it is not a knock on

 

[Taff]

So, what about O'Driscoll self pass?

A "self pass" is fine if you throw it backwards - but the object of the game is to go forwards.

And a "self pass" forward is a "throw forward" - which is a PK offence.

IME rarely do players intercept with two hands, so my rule of thumb is ...... receiving hand is facing up = Benefit of doubt, otherwise PK.

Makes perfect sense to me. If the receiving hand was facing downwards, the chances are that he wouldn't be able to regather it anyway before it hit the ground.

Just out of interest watch the Light Blues reaction at 38 seconds of the original clip. Not one of them claims a PK.

 

[Rushforth]

And a "self pass" forward is a "throw forward" - which is a PK offence.

Only deliberate throws forwards are PKs. I'd argue that the BOD one is deliberate, but his passing action looked to me to be backwards last time I watched it (I'm not going to rejudge it now, happy to defer to crossref that it wasn't).

Tonight our SH intercepted brilliantly. He only reached the ball with one hand (upwards); the other was close. And he regathered two paces up field before the ball hit the ground. No problem in my book, even though he had to dive unlike in the first video. In which it looks very much like the hand is not trying to knock the ball either, but to intercept laterally. That it goes forwards relative to the interceptor could have something to do with the pass being backwards relative to the passing player with respect to the field, I dunno

 

[Browner]

Just out of interest watch the Light Blues reaction at 38 seconds of the original clip. Not one of them claims a PK.

Which, along with all the other clips recently showed, supports my suggestion that very few players coaches or referees would object to such action being written into law as an exception.

 

[Taff]

Only deliberate throws forwards are PKs. I'd argue that the BOD one is deliberate ...

I agree that the BOD throw didn't look right, but I can't see how any player can accidentally throw forward to himself.

 

[Rushforth]

I agree that the BOD throw didn't look right, but I can't see how any player can accidentally throw forward to himself.

(First ask yourself if it is possible to throw the ball forward to oneself if the pass is judged relative to the passing player)

It looked to me as if he was releasing the ball laterally across the field, despite the ball being caught on the other side of the line.

On watching it again, at 0:15, look at the poor white player who bounced back of the decoy runner.

 

[OB..]

Should the LoTG allign with what happens in reality, or should the rugby world be educated to accept these as knock forward's?

I favour the view that 'deliberately knocking/hitting the ball forward within a bonafide attempt to gather possession of it' should become a permitted exception.

I am strongly opposed to that because of the consequences. It would legitimise the Aussie Rules "hand pass", which breaks the basic concept of Rugby that you cannot use your hands to advance the ball. The current knock-on law makes a dent in it in order to simplify the idea of juggling the ball. IMHO this has already gone too far. We have had to stretch another concept to fit ie the player is deemed to be in possession of the ball and can therefore be tackled.

Time to bring back common sense, eg it is a knock-on if the ball goes forward out of the player's reach; and deliberately knocking the ball forward is not a knock-on but an offence.

 

[Browner]

I am strongly opposed to that because of the consequences. It would legitimise the Aussie Rules "hand pass", which breaks the basic concept of Rugby that you cannot use your hands to advance the ball. The current knock-on law makes a dent in it in order to simplify the idea of juggling the ball. IMHO this has already gone too far. We have had to stretch another concept to fit ie the player is deemed to be in possession of the ball and can therefore be tackled.

Time to bring back common sense, eg it is a knock-on if the ball goes forward out of the player's reach; and deliberately knocking the ball forward is not a knock-on but an offence.

OB, as much as you are clearly correct in your 'technical' analysis, the problem is that for as long as I can remember no referee/coach/player or supporter has ever seen 'knocked forward' as the outcome of this type of regathering attempt. I'd further add that if referees anywhere started doing so, it would be widely criticised.

Surely having a permitted exception [which doesn't include deliberate "hand pass's"] , is better than have a universally ignored law?

You'd be much better at drafting a watertight acceptable exception than I for sure.

 

[OB..]

It now seems that some people feel that while the Law says you can't throw forward to yourself, you can knock forward to yourself. With which I do not agree.

Nor does sarefs.

Could a player then knock the ball over an opponent's head, run round him and collect the ball?No.
Law 12.1 (f) Intentional knock or throw forward. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.
Sanction: Penalty kick. A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.
What Petersen did was clearly unintentional. He would much have preferred to have caught it cleanly.

It was misleading to start off with "Deliberate knock-on?" but ultimately they say that a deliberate knock forward is a penalty offence and that it does not matter if you subsequently catch the ball or not..

Perhaps we need to rewind this thread and start again..