[6N] Ireland v England

ChuckieB

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Assumes the opponent is still on his feet and bound in and contesting the ruck. No problem.


It's so imprecise but for me the laws pretty much support any decision the referee makes on the outcome under the circumstances!
"Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball,...."

There's always a flaw somewhere.

And then the animations in the law book on this are just not even touching reality, that's if they ever were to start with!
 

Pinky


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A player cannot join a ruck by binding on to players on the ground. That would require him to have his shoulders below his hips.

So there are some situations where the contest for the ball is over and it is up to W9 to put it back into play or ref will blow for not using it. Same would happen at the back of a scrum, unless you felt that the side that did not win the ball might have a chance at pushing the scrum back. Nowadays the refs seem to be calling "use it" if the front rows go down to get the ball back into play without having to reset the scrum.
 

ChuckieB

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A player cannot join a ruck by binding on to players on the ground. That would require him to have his shoulders below his hips.

So there are some situations where the contest for the ball is over and it is up to W9 to put it back into play or ref will blow for not using it. Same would happen at the back of a scrum, unless you felt that the side that did not win the ball might have a chance at pushing the scrum back. Nowadays the refs seem to be calling "use it" if the front rows go down to get the ball back into play without having to reset the scrum.

I seem to recall there was some directive first started in the SH to avoid a reset if the ball was going to be reasonably available at that time so long as there was no delay and it was safe to do so? There is some logic in that.
 

The Fat


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IMO that should have been a PK to Ireland.
A ruck is formed when 17W clears out 5G.
9W is at the back with hands on the ball so he is basically digging the ball out of the ruck.
20W is in front & has left hand free and right hand on the ball so is bound to no-one. He then waits for Green defender to move to defend the edge, before picking the ball up from the ruck and going through the gap.
 

The Fat


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IMO that should have been a PK to Ireland.
A ruck is formed when 17W clears out 5G.
9W is at the back with hands on the ball so he is basically digging the ball out of the ruck.
20W is in front & has left hand free and right hand on the ball so is bound to no-one. He then waits for Green defender to move to defend the edge, before picking the ball up from the ruck and going through the gap.

Just had a look at it again but this time on my laptop and not my mobile, and with a bigger screen it also looks like the 20W puts a hand on the ball then loses contact as 9W puts hands on the ball and positions it for 20W as he puts his hand back on the ball. So for anyone who says a ruck wasn't formed, we also have 20W playing the ball after 9W played the ball.
 

ChuckieB

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5g is a tackler only. 4w and 5g go to ground by which time G17 as tackle assist has stepped away.

.... tackle only

and for the eagle eyed, Nathan Hughes comes though the gate with the completion of the tackle and never loses contact with the ball. He shuffles his hand around it.
 
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The Fat


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5g is a tackler only. 4w and 5g go to ground by which time G17 as tackle assist has stepped away.

.... tackle only

and for the eagle eyed, Nathan Hughes comes though the gate with the completion of the tackle and never loses contact with the ball. He shuffles his hand around it.

5G is a tackle assist who is being cleared by 17W prior to the tackle.
So if you are saying this is a tackle only situation (i.e. no ruck forms) then we have, what is happening more and more, a defender taking out an opponent who is
(a) not a ball carrier
and
(b) not a player in a ruck

I disagree that 20W never takes his hand off the ball. He clearly changes from having the palm of his hand in front of the ball (palm facing towards his own DBL) to having his hand behind the ball (palm facing the opposition DBL)
 

Camquin

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Is the threshold C&O that his hand comes away or C&O that is doesn't.
He possibly loses contact as he adjusts his hand, but I could not swear that he does not keep at least a finger in contact.
If he loses contact he is offside as he is in front of the acting scrum half who does have contact.
But it would be very harsh to call it.

Green had every opportunity to engage him and form a ruck - they chose not to.
Essentially he has come in to form a ruck, realised that Green are not interested and picked up the ball and run with it.
 
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ChuckieB

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5G is a tackle assist who is being cleared by 17W prior to the tackle.
So if you are saying this is a tackle only situation (i.e. no ruck forms) then we have, what is happening more and more, a defender taking out an opponent who is
(a) not a ball carrier
and
(b) not a player in a ruck

I disagree that 20W never takes his hand off the ball. He clearly changes from having the palm of his hand in front of the ball (palm facing towards his own DBL) to having his hand behind the ball (palm facing the opposition DBL)

Ok. For those with a microscope, NH fingertips never lose contact. In the definition I am looking at, he "walks" his fingers across the top and around the back of the ball.:D

Separately, I must certainly agree with the sentiment of your comment. We need to classify that in the realms of situations not adequately dealt with! And perhaps the same breath as clearouts in rucks which, in law terms are not covered. They are certainly not a use of the feet to try and win/retain possession of the ball!

Perhaps clearouts should have their own law?
 
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crossref


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seems to me that while Ireland believe it's a ruck, NH believes it's a tackle, but Danny Care thinks it's a ruck.

the referee knows what it is, but following guidelines he stays shtumm.

(aside : what causes NH to stumble? Does G5 (on the ground) trip him up using his foot?)
 
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ChuckieB

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(aside : what causes NH to stumble? Does G5 (on the ground) trip him up using his foot?)

The "microscope" has a frame with G5 with his foot hooked around NH's ankle!

Capture.JPG
 
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The Fat


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So let's look at it as if it wasn't just a tackle.
The referee is treating it as a ruck, the Irish players are treating it as a ruck so let's for just a minute go along with that and call it a ruck.
Would everyone still be happy with 20W's actions?
 

Dickie E


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looked like a ruck to me. If ref had thought otherwise he should have declared "tackle only!", otherwise it's a gotcha call to let white play it the way they did.
 

crossref


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looked like a ruck to me. If ref had thought otherwise he should have declared "tackle only!", otherwise it's a gotcha call to let white play it the way they did.

After the Italy game the RFU instructed all refs NOT to make 'tackle only' or 'ruck' announcements as Poite did. We are supposed to stay quiet and blow if there is an offence.
One imagines that this approach also applies at international level
 

The Fat


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After the Italy game the RFU instructed all refs NOT to make 'tackle only' or 'ruck' announcements as Poite did. We are supposed to stay quiet and blow if there is an offence.
One imagines that this approach also applies at international level

2 phases later there is a tackle only and JG motions and tells Irish players "back" to a ruck offside line that doesn't exist. I think it's fair to say that JG and the Irish players were of the belief that the "tackle" we were discussing was a ruck.
Motioning to the players to get back is as good as calling "ruck"
 

ChuckieB

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So let's look at it as if it wasn't just a tackle.
The referee is treating it as a ruck, the Irish players are treating it as a ruck so let's for just a minute go along with that and call it a ruck.
Would everyone still be happy with 20W's actions?
I'm happy. NH acting SH as he wasn't bound in and therefore not a participant.....but it's not a ruck so I am guessing who he could be bound on to in that instance.
 

Camquin

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Ball is not on the ground - therefore no ruck - 16.1.b
No maul - therefore tackle only.
 
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