Italy-USA

[Mike Whittaker]

Firstly I would say that if the props do not want the scrum to go down then it won't (at top level on good pitch)!
Second, if the TH was penalised every time he put his hand on the LH arm he would soon stop it!
Third, if the LH does not have TH hand on his arm then he has no excuse not to punch a straight left arm bind - penalise if he doesn't.
Props are taking the proverbial and refs are not getting support to clamp down.

Never thought I would say it, but the scrums in RL are now starting to look more attractive!

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Wyatt Crockett....... he advocates that a prop who slips the bind like this be allowed to drop his hand to the ground to steady himself, and then come up for a second attempt.

Or alternatively just do as as Woodcock does and bind on the chest of the THP and get him to give away the penalty - eg Japan vs NZ:biggrin:

 

[Ian_Cook]

Firstly I would say that if the props do not want the scrum to go down then it won't (at top level on good pitch)!

Agreed, so long as both props bind long, but if the referee doesn't make them, then they wont, because if only ONE of them does, he is going to be at an immediate disadvantage

Second, if the TH was penalised every time he put his hand on the LH arm he would soon stop it!

Agree 100%, but trying to get the referees at elite level to do this will be a mission

Third, if the LH does not have TH hand on his arm then he has no excuse not to punch a straight left arm bind - penalise if he doesn't.

This is where I think you are missing the point. At grassroots level, with loose fitting jerseys, yes, but these slick elite level jerseys are a different kettle. Some of the props I have spoken have told me they are very hard to grasp, and it varies from brand to brand. The Adidas ones aren't too bad, but the Koo-ga ones are much more difficult. One of the Tasman props told me that the Koo-Ga jerseys are like trying to grasp bare wet soapy skin with wet soapy hands; and if you miss on the first attempt you have had it; your hand just slides up.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

... your hand just slides up.

Excellent!! No way you can pull the scrum down when the hand is up on the back!

 

[chopper15]

I raised this problem some days back' Ian.

Propping is recognised as a 'specialised' playing position, so why on earth didn't they introduce bespoke 'binding hold patches' on their shirts . . . particularly now they're using such tight-fitting hi-tech materials to make first hit tackling holds more difficult.

Isn't there any feedback channels to the IRB for goodness sake? And did 'they' ever experiment with that scrummaging requirement before approving it for use in the field or is that still taking place world-wide?:sad:

 

[Ian_Cook]

Excellent!! No way you can pull the scrum down when the hand is up on the back!

Not really, because you don't have any kind of grip at all... almost worst that having a illegal grip.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I raised this problem some days back' Ian.

Propping is recognised as a 'specialised' playing position, so why on earth didn't they introduce bespoke 'binding hold patches' on their shirts . . . particularly now they're using such tight-fitting hi-tech materials to make first hit tackling holds more difficult.

Isn't there any feedback channels to the IRB for goodness sake? And did 'they' ever experiment with that scrummaging requirement before approving it for use in the field or is that still taking place world-wide?:sad:

Perhaps the props jersey could have "grip pads" (similar to those on the chest that are supposed to help grip the ball) on the back behind the armpit.

 

[chopper15]

Perhaps the props jersey could have "grip pads" (similar to those on the chest that are supposed to help grip the ball) on the back behind the armpit.

You say 'perhaps', Ian. The impression I get is that nobody seems all that fussed about an answer to this problem . . the biggest culprits appear to be the 'instigators' of the change.

Practical common-sense solutions on this site for discussion are usually lost in subsequent argy-bargy.:sad:

 

[ChrisR]

I've thought of this too but ...

No prop (read team) is going to have 'grip pads' so the other prop can get a better bind unless it was a requirement.

I really don't have a good answer to this.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

FFS no grip pads!! the pads on the legs for the line out are stupid enough as it is. Simplify, don't complicate!

As for props having no grip, I again say, "excellent". They only have to push straight. Maybe it would be better if all props had to keep outside arm in their pockets (not serious but ...)

 

[Ian_Cook]

I've thought of this too but ...

No prop (read team) is going to have 'grip pads' so the other prop can get a better bind unless it was a requirement.

I really don't have a good answer to this.

Just as no prop is going to bind long unless his opponent is also required to. If you are a TH with a long bind, and your opposing LH has a short bind, YOU are at a big disadvantage.

IMO, all prop jerseys should be required to have a grip zone... and the prop MUST bind in the grip zone, or PING!!

 

[chopper15]

The 'practical' purpose of the suggested grip-pads is two-fold.

Not only to give a positive grip but also to give the props an obvious and a positive location instead of that optimistic last minute grab imposed by the 'instigators'?

And why shouldn't the 'touch' command be used to secure the hold ; 'pause' and 'engage' could then be used to engage at close quarters to soften the 'hit' which so often breaks a tentative hold.:hap:

As I queried before, is there any evidence that this 'bumpsidaisy' scrummaging procedure was ever properly experimented with?

 

[dave_clark]

As I queried before, is there any evidence that this 'bumpsidaisy' scrummaging procedure was ever properly experimented with?

nope, no evidence because it was never trialled. after three bottles of red, the IRB decide to implement changes willy nilly. that's how they operate.

:sarc:

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Just as no prop is going to bind long unless his opponent is also required to. If you are a TH with a long bind, and your opposing LH has a short bind, YOU are at a big disadvantage.

IMO, all prop jerseys should be required to have a grip zone... and the prop MUST bind in the grip zone, or PING!!

The thought of the regs for a grip zone and manufacturer involvement and cost ... Crazy!

And if my opposing prop is 3 stone heavier and much stronger then I am also at a big disadvantage... Tough!!

 

[Dixie]

The thought of the regs for a grip zone and manufacturer involvement and cost ... Crazy!

Not at all! have a look at the chest area of pretty much every shirt - even Russia's. You'll see an area of sticky pimply stuff. Just require a 6" circle of that and state where it must be postioned in relation to the armpit seam joint, and Bob's your uncle, Fanny's your aunt, and Roger's your whistling musican.

 

[OB..]

And why shouldn't the 'touch' command be used to secure the hold ; 'pause' and 'engage' could then be used to engage at close quarters to soften the 'hit' which so often breaks a tentative hold.

If a player is binding correctly on to his opponent at the touch, the packs have already engaged.

The touch is to ensure the packs are close enough together. It is not a hold of any sort because that would enable a player to exert some kind of disruptive force while engaging.

 

[upnunder]

What about the flanker who comes in as a front row replacement wearing his number 6 shirt? would he have to put on the prop's shirt before he could scrummage.
Also, what implications for clubs who bought their kit two years ago and arent due to change it for another 2 years at least?

good idea in principle, but only really enforceable at higher levels.
the price of kits would shoot up as well, as manufacturers could charge extra for the prop shirts.

 

[OB..]

What about the flanker who comes in as a front row replacement wearing his number 6 shirt? would he have to put on the prop's shirt before he could scrummage.
Also, what implications for clubs who bought their kit two years ago and arent due to change it for another 2 years at least?

good idea in principle, but only really enforceable at higher levels.
the price of kits would shoot up as well, as manufacturers could charge extra for the prop shirts.

There is no great problem at lower levels. It merely needs to be in the IRB Regulations for Internationals, and national unions can make their own regulations as appropriate.

 

[didds]

from what gets written here in the lower levels prop's binds don;t seem to be an issue as much as they allegedly are in the elite game... so presumably such patches wouldn;t be needed.

didds

 

[Taff]

... Also, what implications for clubs who bought their kit two years ago and arent due to change it for another 2 years at least?

Simple. Make it discretionary for a year or 2 and compulsory thereafter.

Most clubs will have changed their sponsors and therefore jerseys probably by then anyway wouldn't they?

As the Chinese say "Every journey starts with a single step".