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I think you're being deliberately provocative. And you're tilting at entirely the wrong windmills then
[Ruck] Kicking ball out of a ruck. Is this illegal?
- Thread starter CrouchTPEngage
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Not Kurt Weaver
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Paule23
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Why not? We all know the professional game is very different to what most of us referee. If we do let allow it, it stops. We might annoy a few players and coaches, but as referees we have the power to enforce the laws, and cannot be held to account if we do it right,
now i know there are people who disagree that rolling a player away from a ruck is collapsing, and we need to have empathy with athe game, but I don't accept the genie argument, if we let it out we have the power to put it back again.
Law 16.4: Other ruck offences
A player must not kick the ball out of a ruck. The player can only hook it in a backwards motion. Sanction: Penalty. Rationale: To promote player welfare and to make it consistent with scrum law.
Watched great game National One on Saturday 32 - 31 won with last kick of the game. Junior playing scrum half against his old club and former back row. Oppo 6 was very disruptive and in rucks would often attempt to kick ball forward but it never came out of ruck
Over dinner and beers junior said I thought new law meant you can't kick ball forward in a ruck? I attended HRURS August meeting when we discussed new law variations but having re-read law 16.4 I am uncertain when a player should be penalised?:chin:
A player must not kick the ball out of a ruck. The player can only hook it in a backwards motion. Sanction: Penalty. Rationale: To promote player welfare and to make it consistent with scrum law.
Watched great game National One on Saturday 32 - 31 won with last kick of the game. Junior playing scrum half against his old club and former back row. Oppo 6 was very disruptive and in rucks would often attempt to kick ball forward but it never came out of ruck
Over dinner and beers junior said I thought new law meant you can't kick ball forward in a ruck? I attended HRURS August meeting when we discussed new law variations but having re-read law 16.4 I am uncertain when a player should be penalised?:chin:
didds
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They may have been mistaken back in February, but since the 1st August 2017 they are right now.
Well, for a year at least, but I for one am pretty sure this is one law trial that will be kept.
I think Junior is correct, only hooking backwards is now allowed, imo.
btw did Junior win?
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If they attemp to kick it out and fail I would be looking to warn them at the earliest opportunity not to do it again.
If they keep trying it after that I would be happy to penalise them even if the ball doesn't come out.
Remember this is a safety issue to stop people kicking in the ruck and risking injuring a nother player.
You need to stop them doing it, not wait to see if the ball is actually kicked out.
If they keep trying it after that I would be happy to penalise them even if the ball doesn't come out.
Remember this is a safety issue to stop people kicking in the ruck and risking injuring a nother player.
You need to stop them doing it, not wait to see if the ball is actually kicked out.
That's how I see it as well.
But I reckon it isn't just a "safety issue"; I think it's a "lets cut out anything which makes the game messy" issue (and let's be blunt, balls being kicked out of rucks are messy) which just happens to have a safety tint to it as well. Everyone's a winner - I'm happy to bet £20 this law trial will be applauded and made permanent.
I and majority of contributors seem to agree that player should be warned about kicking ball first (safety etc) and then penalised if he/ she persists. However, will ask for clarification at next society meeting because if you apply letter of the law, then player can kick ball forward until it comes out of ruck which as Phil says is messy as well as dangerous.
Yes great win and start to season, thanks. We had to take on lots of fluids afterwards because it was bloody hot :biggrin:
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My personal hunch is that this change isn't about safety at all (we already have enough laws to protect someone on the ground in a ruck) , I think it's about messiness, Maro Itoje did it a lot in the Lions and and I reckon WR didn't think it was how rugby should be played
ChuckieB
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By the letter of the law (or the application of, at least) do you see officials giving warnings for not rolling away or do they penalise immediately?
In order for the ball to be kicked out of the ruck it must be kicked in the first place. That it does not come out is hardly relevant as the intent is sufficient. I am not going to make a rod for my own back and I will call the penalty. It's cynical and they know they shouldn't be doing it.
Pegleg
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Are you suggsting that WR did not like the Lions tactic so they brought in this change?
Referees often call players to roll away.
I think that right now it is a good idea to include in your PMB the fact that kicking in a ruck is now a PK offence (and don't be pedantic about the "out" bit).
Yes. Not because they have anything against the Lions , any more than have any personal grind with Italy over the no ruck tackle..
I think that right now it is a good idea to include in your PMB the fact that kicking in a ruck is now a PK offence (and don't be pedantic about the "out" bit).[/QUOTE]
Good call OB I will use when I start back refereeing in a couple of months. Unfortunately doesn't explain why National Panel referee allowed player to kick ball?
Perhaps I should tell junior to ask referee at PMB how he is going to referee the ruck in terms of players kicking the ball?:biggrin:
Good call OB I will use when I start back refereeing in a couple of months. Unfortunately doesn't explain why National Panel referee allowed player to kick ball?
Perhaps I should tell junior to ask referee at PMB how he is going to referee the ruck in terms of players kicking the ball?:biggrin:
beckett50
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The change is for 2 reasons.
1 is WRs campaign to minimise contact with the head by boots etc. There is every risk that a player seeking to kick the ball forward and out of the ruck may - on the backward part of the movement - make contact with the head of the tackled player who is still lying on the ground; or any other players on the ground near the ball.
Secondly, booting the ball 30 yards up the field is not deemed as attractive and positive. The remit is to get the ball on play and through the hands of the players.