[Ruck] Kicking ball out of a ruck. Is this illegal?

[crossref]

Only the second of those reasons required a change in the Law .. we have been protecting heads in rucks for quite a while

 

[Pegleg]

Yes. Not because they have anything against the Lions , any more than have any personal grind with Italy over the no ruck tackle..

Ok it was not the lions (which you reference). That might be why I was confused. The law change was announced before the lions so it could not be anything to do with Itoje. This is why I asked as your linking of his actions and your suggestion that WR dislike the tactic. Which seemed odd considering the timeline.

I'm a little clearer now.

 

[VM75]

...... no need to change the existing laws, very few players were savvy enough to get their foot on the ball to disrupt the opposition.

if you accept that rucks were once informal scrums then you'll see why pushing beyond the ball, & hooking it backwards to win possession were always the objective.

I'm not sure when 'kicking at it' became vogue, ref's first started addressing this issue with their 'swinging around' sanctioning [despite their being no law to back it up]

personally i'm glad to see a return to trying to win the ball for your team rather than merely disrupting theirs with a lunging size 11 boot , much better IMO.

 

[didds]

My personal hunch is that this change isn't about safety at all (we already have enough laws to protect someone on the ground in a ruck) , I think it's about messiness, Maro Itoje did it a lot in the Lions and and I reckon WR didn't think it was how rugby should be played

Yep. i'll accept that. along with the Italian tactic v England. and as suggested the "long stride" with a foot in touch when catching a kick.

best get these atrocious ideas removed. But best don't do anything about squint feeds or throws or prop binds. Far too difficult to sort out

didds

 

[didds]

Secondly, booting the ball 30 yards up the field is not deemed as attractive and positive. The remit is to get the ball on play and through the hands of the players.

so why don't they ban kicking from hand as well?

didds

 

[didds]

personally i'm glad to see a return to trying to win the ball for your team rather than merely disrupting theirs with a lunging size 11 boot , much better IMO.

*shrug* Maybe the other team should win it more quickly or protect the ball better.

Personally i'd rather see WR get the laws they already had enforced, instead of ignoring them and introducing other laws to be ignored.

didds

 

[crossref]

Ok it was not the lions (which you reference). That might be why I was confused. The law change was announced before the lions so it could not be anything to do with Itoje. This is why I asked as your linking of his actions and your suggestion that WR dislike the tactic. Which seemed odd considering the timeline.

I'm a little clearer now.

that Law change was announced after the Lions wasn't it? on 20th July
http://www.englandrugby.com/news/world-rugby-announce-six-law-changes/

anyway, it doesn't make much difference, I think kicking out of the ruck as a tactic had been growing last season anyway -- but the Lions use of it was high profile. Even though if change was announced after the Lions it might have been in the pipeline before....
(although I don't think it has been trialled anywhere??)

 

[ChrisR]

There is the 'danger to players on the ground' issue but there is also SHs digging the ball out. I don't think we've lost a finer point in the game by outlawing it.

 

[SimonSmith]

Another solution in search of a problem that *might* exist but doesn't seem to have.

 

[didds]

Another solution in search of a problem that *might* exist but doesn't seem to have.

whilst orther C&O problems, already allegedlty dealt with in the existing laws, are ignored

didds

 

[Pinky]

We (at least in Scotland) for a couple of years have been penalising players for stepping over bodies in the ruck to kick the ball out, rather like Mr Itoje has been identified as doing. This on the grounds of safety. It seems to me quite simple to ban kicking in rucks at all as they are much more likely to be potentially injurious than a heel back.

 

[didds]

... until you step over the body to back heel the ball and catch the prone player with the heel of your boot

Why is the body there unpenalised?

didds

 

[Pegleg]

that Law change was announced after the Lions wasn't it? on 20th July
http://www.englandrugby.com/news/world-rugby-announce-six-law-changes/

anyway, it doesn't make much difference, I think kicking out of the ruck as a tactic had been growing last season anyway -- but the Lions use of it was high profile. Even though if change was announced after the Lions it might have been in the pipeline before....
(although I don't think it has been trialled anywhere??)

12 days from the end of the tour to a law change? Ok I'll buy that. Now I must reply to that nice Nigerian Prince's email.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

We (at least in Scotland) for a couple of years have been penalising players for stepping over bodies in the ruck to kick the ball out, rather like Mr Itoje has been identified as doing. This on the grounds of safety. It seems to me quite simple to ban kicking in rucks at all as they are much more likely to be potentially injurious than a heel back.

what is the secondary signal for that penalty?

if a player committed this infraction repeatedly, did he get a card?

what law would the ref reference in a disciplinary report for this card? stepping over players seems reasonable (if bound properly)

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Need some help here.

I've watched the A Rolland and W Barnes videos on this law change concerning kicking ball out of ruck.

Both have identified the following reasons for change
1. Player safety/welfare
2. To make ruck consistent with scrum law.

Now there is law concerning front row kicking out and I assume that means out through tunnel. But what law, if any, are WR striving to be consistent within scrum law?

 

[didds]

Need some help here.

I've watched the A Rolland and W Barnes videos on this law change concerning kicking ball out of ruck.

Both have identified the following reasons for change
1. Player safety/welfare
2. To make ruck consistent with scrum law.

Now there is law concerning front row kicking out and I assume that means out through tunnel. But what law, if any, are WR striving to be consistent within scrum law?

If they wanted to be consistent with scrum law why wouldn't they be stopping ruckers going to ground/collapsing after making contact? In the same way you can't in the scrum.?

They are making it up as they go along!

didds

 

[Pinky]

what is the secondary signal for that penalty?

if a player committed this infraction repeatedly, did he get a card?

what law would the ref reference in a disciplinary report for this card? stepping over players seems reasonable (if bound properly)

NKW, it was in the Scottish Rugby Guidelines for Refereeing Domestic Rugby:

In a bit headed Foul Play and Feet on Bodies:

Players should not step over the ruck to kick the ball

and reiterated in the Ruck section:

Players are not permitted to step over the ruck to kick the ball

I would not be too worried about law reference, but it would either be 16.2 or 16.3 or 10.4 (k) dangerous play in a ruck.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

NKW, it was in the Scottish Rugby Guidelines for Refereeing Domestic Rugby:

In a bit headed Foul Play and Feet on Bodies:

Players should not step over the ruck to kick the ball

and reiterated in the Ruck section:

Players are not permitted to step over the ruck to kick the ball

I would not be too worried about law reference, but it would either be 16.2 or 16.3 or 10.4 (k) dangerous play in a ruck.

It was a local regulation, I get understand now.

It is also a poorly written local reg. To be a wise ass, who can actually step over a ruck. This would only apply to Goliath, Rasputin, Yao Ming, Andre the Giant, Longshanks, Bigfoot, and Maximinus

 

[Phil E]

To be a wise ass, who can actually step over a ruck. This would only apply to Goliath, Rasputin, Yao Ming, Andre the Giant, Longshanks, Bigfoot, and Maximinus

So all second rows then.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

So all second rows then.

Yeah exactly, but 2nd rows actually involved at rucks are as rare as bigfoot sightings. Hmmm, that's odd.
Coincidental, i'm sure.