Kicking out of ruck

[Browner]

You're out of order , but £ says higher than you !
:knuppel2:

 

[Davet]

Quite possibly. I'm frequently out of order. And never played above grass roots.

But as someone who played the game at above L6 or so (which I assume from your comment is the minimum), how do you come by the notion that kicking through the ruck is illegal, and that there such concepts of "positive" and "negative" play, rather than merely "legal" or "illegal" play - and whence the notion that refs are some sort of style arbiter with a brief to reward "positive" and punish "negative", (whatever the heck they are) regardless of what the legal status of the tactic may be?

I may be out of order, but frankly the whole notion seems so cockeyed that I could not understand how anyone who had played the game, at pretty much any level, could come up with it.

If you want to use your baseball bat feel free - I've been beaten up before (by some big blokes too, I'm used to it - water...duck's back).

 

[SimonSmith]

I side entirely with DaveT and OB on this.

Personal predilections have no place in any referee's framework. Use of "positive" and "negative" play is a subjective, almost moral, stance that I don't believe the referee should allow to influence his refereering.

Is an act clear, obvious, material and illegal according to law? No? Leave it alone then.

 

[Phil E]

We work with out colleagues to drive up standards and consistency, not banish them to Coventry

OI!!!
We don't want em either.

 

[FlipFlop]

I contend that the 'intention' was to have similar laws in both ruck & scrum scenarios's

Scrum was a 'Running with ball in hand, has 'broken down through error' restart
Ruck was a 'Running with the ball in hand, but 'broken down through a tackle, restart

?

And interestingly enough, on this topic we do have similar laws. Perfectly legal to kick the ball forward in a scrum (in XVs). Very good tactic at times. Ball out the back too quick, so your SH gets to it first (wins posession), or the ball rebounds of a leg and you win possession.

In a ruck no problem with it either. Normally occurs when a team manage to counterruck over the tackled player, and can then get a clean boot to ball. Normally results in either very bad ball (and probably a PK against for holding on), or a straight win of the ball, for the team who kicks it.

If you outlaw it, then what is a kick? Ball hitting foot accidentally? Moving ruck with ball kept at "8s" feet (as per a scrum)?, using feet to knock ball forward to keep it in the ruck?

 

[Browner]

If you outlaw it, then what is a kick?
Ball hitting foot accidentally? 'no, thats accidental'
Moving ruck with ball kept at "8s" feet (as per a scrum)? 'no, thats no8 controlling it'
Using feet to knock ball forward to keep it in the ruck? no, again thats control

You'll know a kick forward when you see one, they're fairly obvious

Ruck kicking is a new development [an unpredicted opportunity] caused by modern rucks containing fewer players & often being only one player deep. Q..Is it a good development? - no, not IMO

Clearly others think it adds to the game of rugby to be able boot it ..either out , or at the scrum half [hoping for disrupted supply or knock on] - I don't think it does.

But then ..... some influencial people thought that CTPE & now CTS was a good idea, & lineout lifting would ruin line outs .... so what can I say !

 

[didds]

I kick onto scrum-half hands and it bounces off them (forwards!) = knock on = scrum to my side = collapse = 50/50 chanve of winning a PK ... what's not to like from the modern elite perspective?

Lets be realistic about it.

didds

 

[boywonder]

I side entirely with DaveT and OB on this.

Personal predilections have no place in any referee's framework. Use of "positive" and "negative" play is a subjective, almost moral, stance that I don't believe the referee should allow to influence his refereering.

Is an act clear, obvious, material and illegal according to law? No? Leave it alone then.

Exactly.

 

[SimonSmith]

You'll know a kick forward when you see one, they're fairly obvious

Ruck kicking is a new development [an unpredicted opportunity] caused by modern rucks containing fewer players & often being only one player deep. Q..Is it a good development? - no, not IMO

Clearly others think it adds to the game of rugby to be able boot it ..either out , or at the scrum half [hoping for disrupted supply or knock on] - I don't think it does.

But then ..... some influencial people thought that CTPE & now CTS was a good idea, & lineout lifting would ruin line outs .... so what can I say !

I don't have an opinion on whether or not kicking out of the ruck adds to the game or not. It's legal. And the conversation should end there.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Go on then - i'll ask ........ describe a situation when a ball genuinely still in the ruck , can be swung at by a Bonafide [legal] ruck participant & it not likely be dangerous to see a swinging size 11 boot?

All it requires is for at least one player to be on his feet in the ruck - :wow: - and in a position to get a foot to the ball.

The ball sitting in the back of the Blue side of the ruck, still ahead of the hindmost foot (so not out of the ruck by any means) and the scrumhalf has been held up elsewhere and is not there to pick it up. The Black player sticks a foot out and jabs the ball out, freeing all his onside players to swarm after the ball.

This is perfectly legal, and a good tactic IMO.

 

[Dixie]

nevertheless the OP was wondering about whether it is legal......

No I wasn't ! read again....properly

Browner, sometimes it's not all about you! This is what the OP actually wrote:

Just wanted to check

I have always penalised a player who kicked the ball out of a ruck, even if no one has their hands on it.

Am I right? I can't find it in the laws

 

[Browner]

Is an act clear, obvious, material and illegal according to law? No? Leave it alone then.

However did dummying from scrum/ruck/maul get outlawed then?
presumably some people thought it was a legitimate tactic - & it was legal .... then along came a discenting voice who suggested it was ..... i'm whispering........ 'negative' ! :shrug:


Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago. :chin:

 

[OB..]

However did dummying from scrum/ruck/maul get outlawed then?

The problem was that an opponent could not actually see what the dummy half was doing, so the technique was used to get a penalty by drawing someone offside. I see no connection with kicking the ball out of a ruck.

 

[Browner]

The problem was that an opponent could not actually see what the dummy half was doing, so the technique was used to get a penalty by drawing someone offside. I see no connection with kicking the ball out of a ruck.

Like i didn't know that !

Connection? Improvements to the game don't happen without someone suggesting them, but wait - you know that - you're bright...... which means ..... !
:deadhorse:

 

[Phil E]

Attitude alert!

 

[OB..]

Like i didn't know that !

So there was little point in raising it. Good.

 

[Browner]

So there was little point in raising it. Good.

A single summarising word purporting to support your own statement. Clever. :wink:

 

[Dixie]

Is it just me, or has the level of discussion deteriorated since Browner started getting bitchy? :sad:

 

[SimonSmith]

No it isn't just you

 

[Browner]

Ruck kicking is a new development [an unpredicted opportunity] caused by modern rucks containing fewer players & often being only one player deep. Q..Is it a good development? - no, not IMO

Clearly others think it adds to the game of rugby to be able boot it ..either out , or at the scrum half [hoping for disrupted supply or knock on] - I don't think it does.

!

Yes, I know it's not yet a ruck, but IMO this is a by-product of the practice of doing it!
http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/04/31...rney-with-clumsy-kick-to-the-head#allcomments