Knock On Law .

BikingBud


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Throw forward yes (it's relative to the player, "arms of the player move forward")

But this thread is about knock on, and for a knock on its not specified
For a throw forward which way is forward? 🤔 How do the players arms have to be seen to move to determine that a pass is forward? 🤔

It is not relative to themselves as there are many directions that the player may face yet only one direction that really counts.

It is normal that, to prevent any ambiguity and misapplication, you define something once and apply that definition univocally throughout the context, in the Laws. I would offer, therefore with an extremely high level of certainty it's the same forward for both a "knock on" and "thrown forward" that has been advised numerous times as applying throughout the game and as defined in the Law definitions

Repeated again for convenience:

Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.​

HTH

Were you really after a 3 thread 12 page argument as I don't think that's what you paid for.
watch
 

crossref


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We all know that a pass can travel foward over the ground, and yet not be throw forward (forward pass)

Can that be the same for a knock on ? I do not think so.

(This is what scenario 2 is about)

So is forward defined differently for each ? Or the same?

Answer with a Law reference
 
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Rich_NL

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A throw forward is judged by the arms (as in the Definitions), not the path of the ball. In a high wind, a ball can be blown clearly forwards from a backwards pass and it's *not* a forward pass.
A knock on is judged by the path of the ball.
In both cases, forwards means the same - towards the opposing DBL, as in the Definitions.
 

crossref


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A throw forward is judged by the arms (as in the Definitions), not the path of the ball. In a high wind, a ball can be blown clearly forwards from a backwards pass and it's *not* a forward pass.
A knock on is judged by the path of the ball.
In both cases, forwards means the same - towards the opposing DBL, as in the Definitions.
I agree with this, but it was a Law question, so Law references?
 

Rich_NL

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I agree with this, but it was a Law question, so Law references?

The Definitions for Knock-on, Throw Forward, Forwards, as I said. The definitions are an essential part of the law book. They are the reference.
 

BikingBud


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I agree with this, but it was a Law question, so Law references?
In the 3 threads that you continue to conflate, you've had the laws, you've had the definitions that support the laws, the definitions that are there to enable consistent application and to prevent ambiguity and misinterpretation.

From The Laws:
The laws are available in 12 languages and have specific sections on:​
  • The playing charter – the basic principles which relate to the playing, coaching and application of law.
    • The laws must be applied in such a way as to ensure that the game is played according to the principles of play. The match officials can achieve this through fairness, consistency, sensitivity and, when appropriate, management.
  • Specific definitions which explain terminology
  • Each of the 21 laws
Yet you continually refuse to recognise the validity of the definitions. I would determine therefore that you cannot apply the laws with fairness, sensitivity and, when appropriate, management. Furthermore, I would very strongly suggest that if you cannot grasp this basic concept of the complementary aspect of these 3 elements of the Laws of the Game that you seriously consider hanging up your whistle.
 

Stu10

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For a throw forward which way is forward? 🤔 How do the players arms have to be seen to move to determine that a pass is forward? 🤔

It is not relative to themselves as there are many directions that the player may face yet only one direction that really counts.

It is normal that, to prevent any ambiguity and misapplication, you define something once and apply that definition univocally throughout the context, in the Laws. I would offer, therefore with an extremely high level of certainty it's the same forward for both a "knock on" and "thrown forward" that has been advised numerous times as applying throughout the game and as defined in the Law definitions

Repeated again for convenience:

Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.​

HTH

Were you really after a 3 thread 12 page argument as I don't think that's what you paid for.
watch
I agree with this, but it was a Law question, so Law references?
How is this discussion still going on... the definitions clearly explain the difference between a forward pass and a knock-on.

Pass: A player throws or hands the ball to another player.
Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.

A forward pass is when a player throws the ball towards the opposition’s dead-ball line... this is focused on the direction of the throw (i.e. the player's hands), not the direction of the ball.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.
Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.

A knock-on is when possession of the ball is lost and the ball goes towards the opposition’s dead-ball line... this is focused on the direction of the ball, not the player's hands.
 
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crossref


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#1
Red kick deep

Blue 15, misjudging the ball, runs backwards and tries to catch. Running backwards all the time, he fumbles from his hands.

The ball goes forward relative to blue 15 but backward relative to the ground .. ie toward blue's own DBL

According to the Law, is that a knock on ?
This exact scenario just happened to Stuart Hogg in Scotland v NZ.

A knock on was given (wrongly in my opinion, but who knows )
 
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Stu10

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This exact scenario just happened to Stuart Hogg in Scotland v NZ.

A knock on was given (wrongly in my opinion, but who knows )
I don't think Hogg knocked it on... He touched the ball in the NZ half, it then traveled back across the half way line and landed in the Scotland half... I don't understand how that can be a knock-on.
 

crossref


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Well, he did knock the ball toward his opponents DBL ..

.. but realtive to the ground he only slowed it down a little so, realtive to the ground , it continued to travel toward the Scottish DBL

Which is the conventional way we understand the law, so not a knock on
 

BikingBud


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In the same way that when running forward a legal pass can travel forwards, a player travelling backwards can knock the ball on.

But was the Hogg incident not due to a perception in where the ball travelled, not as you have continued to claim misunderstanding of the law.
 

crossref


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In the same way that when running forward a legal pass can travel forwards, a player travelling backwards can knock the ball on.

But was the Hogg incident not due to a perception in where the ball travelled, not as you have continued to claim misunderstanding of the law.
Who knows?

As a sole ref I would have no problem with his call, as the knock was clear, but he was too far away to really see how ball travelled over the ground

But as an elite ref, he had the option to let play continue and at the same time ask the TMO to check for a knock on

So why didn't he ? I guess we won't ever know,

But either way isnt it mildly amusing that my very first scenario came up so quickly, and what seems to be the wrong call was made
 

Stu10

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Well, he did knock the ball toward his opponents DBL ..

.. but realtive to the ground he only slowed it down a little so, realtive to the ground , it continued to travel toward the Scottish DBL

Which is the conventional way we understand the law, so not a knock on
IMHO he was side-on for the catch, the ball hit his arms and chest, he didn't control it and the ball was lost backwards. Shame they didn't have a zoomed in short to see more clearly though.
 
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