Ladies world cup 2014

[FightOrFlight]

Only saw the first half of the Ireland v England game today but there were some more bizarre decisions you wouldn't see in any other games or tournament. From the restart off the first England try there was a CLEAR knock from from the catcher...ref said backward. Second England try came from an Irish player wrestling the ball from a tackled English player who was holding on on the ground. Irish player rips the ball out eventually and is dragged down by an English player who then plays the ball back on her side on the ground....ref is no more than 3m away and says nothing but is clearly confused as to what to do. Touch judge was not alive to the English hooker stepping sideways off the mark at the lineout either.

 

[chrismtl]

I've found that the refs really haven't been reffing the rucks well at all. Tons of in from the sides (players flying in from the side), not releasing being called on the wrong team when there should be hands in the ruck called. I mean the first yellow in the Canada game was a joke, although I would have probably given a yellow a couple minutes earlier to the French #8 for not releasing when Canada was almost on the goal line. It was clearly cynical and while the ball was close to the line, it definitely wasn't on the line. The Yellow could have been the TMO making up for a bad call. Another head scratcher is the ref telling White to roll away, White not moving, then the ball popping out on white's side and "play on" as the call.

Overall, 2 more unimpressive matches from the officials.

 

[The Fat]

Would have thought the 2 semi finals would have gone to the top 2 refs.
From the last 2 posts, it sounds like there were some strange calls.
Question then is who gets the final?

 

[Phil E]

Question then is who gets the final?

Spreaders is coming out of retirement for it epper:

 

[rugbyslave]

I have to add my 5cents in here we are being highly critical and going through the calls with a magnifying glass. If you have ever refereed a female match you will know there is not regard for the law round rucks and mauls and as this is a jump up on the normal women’s game and the referees are still refereeing it that way. The women’s game is still in its infancy and I challenge anyone to go out a referee a women’s game and we can all go and check the video afterwards you will either kill the game or you will miss a million items. Relax and bite your tongues it’s not as easy as it looks if you give more than 20 penalties you will be slaughtered after the game.

 

[OB..]

I have to add my 5cents in here we are being highly critical and going through the calls with a magnifying glass. If you have ever refereed a female match you will know there is not regard for the law round rucks and mauls and as this is a jump up on the normal women’s game and the referees are still refereeing it that way. The women’s game is still in its infancy and I challenge anyone to go out a referee a women’s game and we can all go and check the video afterwards you will either kill the game or you will miss a million items. Relax and bite your tongues it’s not as easy as it looks if you give more than 20 penalties you will be slaughtered after the game.

While I can understand some leniency at the bottom levels of the women's game (the referee is often coach as well, since many players are entirely new to the game), I cannot see why that should be the case at the top end.

Many of the criticisms have been of refereeing errors such as a PK or a PT that should not have been given.

If there is a high penalty count, I ask myself why. Has the referee taken any preventative action? Escalated to cards? were all the OKs justified? And so on.

I never "slaughter" a referee. My job is to help the referee improve, not drive him out of the game.

 

[SimonSmith]

I have to add my 5cents in here we are being highly critical and going through the calls with a magnifying glass. If you have ever refereed a female match you will know there is not regard for the law round rucks and mauls and as this is a jump up on the normal women’s game and the referees are still refereeing it that way. The women’s game is still in its infancy and I challenge anyone to go out a referee a women’s game and we can all go and check the video afterwards you will either kill the game or you will miss a million items. Relax and bite your tongues it’s not as easy as it looks if you give more than 20 penalties you will be slaughtered after the game.

Here's another $0.05. I do referee a lot of Women's Rugby, especially the high level (national Final 4 or 8) College team that's local.

You're right - the ruck and maul don't tend to set up the same way as the men's. However, as you do with men, you penalize the stuff that matters and is material. I think, from what I've read and what I've seen, that the general feedback here is not that 'the referees aren't calling anything', but instead "they're missing material incidents' and 'they're irrational in some of the decision making, especially given their immediately previous communication'.

The fact that rucks and mauls present differently visually doesn't mean that there should be suspension of refereeing standards along the lines "they're women".

 

[B52 REF]

Unsurprsingly simon t given his experience of women ( and their rugby) is closest on straw poll (but he's got too much stash already), consensus of journos /coaches is level 5 (though coaches reckon the top few against each other are higher and the "would really appreciate level 3 refs for this tourney", irb are saying level 3 (top 4) level 4 (other 8 teams ) but what do they know (oops thats me this tourney )

 

[Browner]

Top 4 teams level 3-4 the next 8 level 5 and thereafter struggling to get above level 7.
The Final itself I would rank at a full L3 on evidence of the last Guildford Final.

RFUW Premiership is appointed as L5 to Group Referees. I was appointed to observe the referee who did last season's final match Richmond v Bristol at Newbury under lights, which Richmond won to take the league title. Numerous internationals were playing and I rated it as a mid L6 match with less physical challenges and more management challenges than a men's L6.

So, on that reasoning for a WCF the official should be operating at least L3 (or above) , so how many are in that mix?

 

[rugbyslave]

It seems as though, the referees do not get enough game time and watch to many super rugby matches. We need those referees to go back to Junior boys level and do 2-3 games a week. They should send the whole lot to "Maties referee academy "where they can do 6 games a week for a month. I see the USA send many of their referees for 3 months.

 

[ChrisR]

I am not a current member of a referee society. However, I was with Southern Cal, Potomac and Virginia in the 70s - 90s. In the early days women's games could only get old farts with bad wheels. When women started refereeing they got women's games and inherited the standard accepted by the previous whistlers. Now, I'm very glad to see, there is assignment on merit but I still believe that there is much catching up to be done.

I'm an advocate for promoting the game without a gender bias but the referees constituency are the players and promoting any referee, be it woman or youth, beyond their ability does the game no favor.

If I understand Pete Steinbeck's position, and I haven't spoken to him for some time, he sees the danger in creating "separate but equal". That would be a formula for inferior and what we have seen at the WRWC is a case in point.

 

[Wert Twacky]

There have been 24 matches played at WRWC 2014 thus far and the main talking points in the media and on social networks has been around two of them.

 

[Rushforth]

What is perhaps being ignored is the fact that the Women's game is still amateur. There may be individual exceptions, and the Dutch 7's side are sponsored, but there isn't serious money involved, as there is in televised professional rugby.

Furthermore, even the very best referees make crucial mistakes at crucial times (for the losing side, at least) every so often. Even with a team of three and a TMO mistakes get made, or at the very least there is a valid argument to be made for both sides of some decisions.

The "main event" will be the Olympic Sevens in two years time. The vast majority of spectators won't have a clue about the laws, but for many it may be their first TV exposure to the game, in a visually more attractive - and more easy to referee - format than 80 minutes of XVs.

Anything before that should perhaps better be seen as training for referees who rarely have access to a TMO and also to players who rarely have the experience of having a team of three watching them.

The times I have refereed female international players, there has not been a word of dissent from any of the players (international or otherwise). Polite queries for explanation, yes of course. However, as for their male coaches....

 

[Simon Thomas]

It seems as though, the referees do not get enough game time and watch to many super rugby matches. We need those referees to go back to Junior boys level and do 2-3 games a week. They should send the whole lot to "Maties referee academy "where they can do 6 games a week for a month. I see the USA send many of their referees for 3 months.

I am afraid you need to be better informed about how both their Home Unions and IRB develop top female referees, the Development and Coaching Pathways they have followed, alongside male referees, and their monitored capabilities.

I know two of the English referees at the Womens RWC quite well, and their weekly training, coaching and officiating schedules are as busy as their male counterparts at their national league levels. Both are ranked in the top 100 (out of 5,000 plus Society Refs in England both male and female). I do not know the highest ranking English female referee who is on the National Panel squad, and out at RWC but she will only have got where she has through years of effort, coaching, ability and high potential being in the middle of a vast number and types of games at Society, Federation and Group level alongside her male colleagues and achieving a higher grade level than 99% of them.

Your comments about Junior Boys level and Maties referee academy are totally off target and rather laughable.

 

[B52 REF]

To correct wert twack (if i dare) the main talking points in media have been the wonderful entertainmnent on show , the mighty irish (till yesterday) the physicality and dynamism, heroic defences, the black ferns exit and their display against wales and their haka,, spains performance, maggie, the french attack from deep and unsurprisingly everything the blues have done to date,, the cannuck 14 , .Mostly about l the enjoyment given by the comittment and endeavour of all 33 patcipants on the field (including TO3) , the great facilities and the singing ( including a 65th minute rendition of la marseillles when les blues were on the rack that was more inspiring than anyi i have heard recently at stade de france),and fun had by the fans,. also some chatter about running out of beer at the stade (plenty on the way for sunday) and not enough tickets. oh yes and 2 off the cuff comments about all women ref panels by a coach who commented also on the presence of some excellent refs....

 

[SimonSmith]

That's a good point. We, as a group, do tend to take an occasionally narrow view of the matches.

Doesn't invalidate the observations though.

 

[Dickie E]

To correct wert twack (if i dare) the main talking points in media have been the wonderful entertainmnent on show , the mighty irish (till yesterday) the physicality and dynamism, heroic defences, the black ferns exit and their display against wales and their haka,, spains performance, maggie, the french attack from deep and unsurprisingly everything the blues have done to date,, the cannuck 14 , .Mostly about l the enjoyment given by the comittment and endeavour of all 33 patcipants on the field (including TO3) , the great facilities and the singing ( including a 65th minute rendition of la marseillles when les blues were on the rack that was more inspiring than anyi i have heard recently at stade de france),and fun had by the fans,. also some chatter about running out of beer at the stade (plenty on the way for sunday) and not enough tickets. oh yes and 2 off the cuff comments about all women ref panels by a coach who commented also on the presence of some excellent refs....

I went to a kids party recently and they had a magician who was absolute crap. Comments from parents/kids? Weather was perfect, food was great, all the kids had a great time, little Johhny loved his presents.

Maybe the crap magician was just in line with everyone's expectations

 

[chrismtl]

At the end of the day this is a Ref's forum and we're here to comment on officials and discuss calls or laws. I agree that there's been lots of great stuff happening at the tournament, and that's fine. This is a 12 page thread on an entire tournament, some of which is critical of the officials (let's be honest, that's what we do here...check out all the "loss of form" threads). There's also a 6 page thread on a single call in a match, but no once cared about the rest of the match in that thread and no one batted an eye cause it was "professional" and it was controversial. Why should we be any more lenient on officials at a World Cup? If half these calls were made in a Super XV match, we'd have another "loss of form" thread pop up and we'd be furious that this was allowed to happen. So yes, there are some great things happening at the tournament, but there are some things happening that could have easily been avoided.

 

[B52 REF]

chris i was merely observing that the media and social chatter werec not as preoccupied with ref issues as we are ( though one forum has numerous posts about how the refs braid their hair (it's hodders who does it by the way) - (i have to read that stuff as part of my job- honest.) Anyway the big news is that aussie hotshot AMY Perret has deservedly been appointed to the final - watch and learn fellow whistlers

 

[irishref]

Even Ireland's poor performance against a dominant England (the sleepy giant was prodded awake by Canada!) hasn't spoiled my enjoyment of this tournament. A wonderful advert for the women's XV game, as women's sevens hogs all the limelight!