Leinster v. Ulster stamping

[ChrisR]

Rare treat for me to see rugby on friends TV but no video capture.

Player repeatedly stamps on ankle of opponent on the ground well away from the ball. Very C & O on the replay but gets only a warning!?!

Can this player get cited when no card issued?

If anyone has the clip please post.

 

[OB..]

Can this player get cited when no card issued?

Yes of course.

The question is usually the other way round: "Can he be cited if he was given a Yellow Card?" (Yes, again)

 

[Pegleg]

Having not seen this incident so only going on the OP description:

THIS is want needs to be erradicated from the reffing of our game. Why dow we worry about a referee's "style" when it works yet we regularly see cases where referees bottle calls?

If the referee saw a clear and obvious ankle stamp, and the OP says that he warned the player so presumably it was seen, then fail to see how he can just warn. Let's deal with problems in "our" (the refs) game before being nit picky about a very highly resprected and regarded referee because we don't like his style.

Priorities people!

 

[OB..]

I must have missed the reference to the referee's style in the OP question .....

 

[Pegleg]

The point is you are preoccupied with Nigel Owen's style. Yet we have referees ignoring foul play. What is the bigger issue? For me foul play. It seems for you, it is a referee's style. On that basis, I think you have your priorities wrong.

I just feel we need to be critical of referees who fail in their basic duties as a ref, than one who's style hit a nerve but who effectively manages his games.

Substance over style for me every time.

 

[ChrisR]

Pegleg, I agree and agree. However I don't think that OB is "preoccupied with Nigel Owen's style". Unless I missed something. Perhaps your "you" was to a broader audience and the discussion on another thread.

 

[Pegleg]

No the "you" is OB. With out wishing to hijack thi thread so last comment on this "sub topic".

I am far more concerned with referee who allows serios foul play to go with a warning than a ref who has a "style" I don't like. One is critical one is not.

 

[OB..]

I am far more concerned with referee who allows serios foul play to go with a warning than a ref who has a "style" I don't like.

I agree.

However style was not a relevant aspect here. The question was a technical one about citing procedures when a referee has dealt with an issue at the time.

 

[crossref]

well, he's been cited. Any video up on the web anywhere? I can't find any.

 

[Pegleg]

I agree.

However style was not a relevant aspect here. The question was a technical one about citing procedures when a referee has dealt with an issue at the time.

Actually there were two questions:

"Player repeatedly stamps on ankle of opponent on the ground well away from the ball. Very C & O on the replay but gets only a warning!?!"

Both points are on topic!

 

[crossref]

neither question seems to be about NO communication style, though, but about his decision.

the qu were
1 - should the referee have given a warning or a card? The citing officers obviosuly think card.
2 - could he still be cited ? Ans: Yes

 

[Simon Thomas]

V

neither question seems to be about NO communication style, though, but about his decision.

the qu were
1 - should the referee have given a warning or a card? The citing officers obviosuly think card.
2 - could he still be cited ? Ans: Yes

To clarify for newer members, a Citing Officer bases a citing on a simple criteria - is it a red card offence or not ? Should the referee have red carded the cited player.

At grassroots level a Club Comittee, or appointed Referee Match Observer or Referee Coach, make their own citings.

Some Citing Officers are very good at this. Current RFU Citing Officers include Wade Dooley, Mike Rafter, and Danny Grewcock !

 

[ChrisR]

In the event from my OP only a warning was given. What is the responsibility of the TMO when C & O on the film? Can he interject or does he have to be asked?

Now that McGrath has been cited, meaning that it was considered a red card offence, will there be a review/reprimand for the referee?

 

[crossref]

In the event from my OP only a warning was given. What is the responsibility of the TMO when C & O on the film? Can he interject or does he have to be asked?

Now that McGrath has been cited, meaning that it was considered a red card offence, will there be a review/reprimand for the referee?

it's not finished yet : the citing officer is saying that he thinks it was a RC offence, but he's like the CPS, not the judge.
The hearing will determine whether it actually was a RC offence or not.

I don't suppose NO would be reprimanded (although how would I know?) but I am sure that any referee is going to smart a bit if there is an upheld citing of an incident that he saw clearly at the time.

 

[Pegleg]

neither question seems to be about NO communication style, though, but about his decision.

the qu were
1 - should the referee have given a warning or a card? The citing officers obviosuly think card.
2 - could he still be cited ? Ans: Yes

I made the point that we should be more concerned with whether or not refs are getting the call right than worry about their style (particularily where players etc have no problem with any particular referees style / approach). That was in response to the question was the call correct. From the description it seems the call was poor and the referee clearly saw the incident.

Do you see the point? Why waste time and effort where there is no problem when there are areas where there clearly are problems.

 

[Simon Thomas]

In the event from my OP only a warning was given. What is the responsibility of the TMO when C & O on the film? Can he interject or does he have to be asked?

Now that McGrath has been cited, meaning that it was considered a red card offence, will there be a review/reprimand for the referee?

I maybe wrong but the TMO at elite level is there to offer advice when asked by the Referee, and within agreed protocols.
In the same way Appointed ARs at Elite down to Level 4 in Engish League and elsewhere in Society matches if appointed operate under the referee's management - hence there is a pre-match briefing.

At Elite, and National Panel levels there is a Match Observer, a Referee Coach, plus a Referee Manager, all of whom have access to match video and derived stats/analytics. Plus the two Club Coaches / DoRs will submit their own feedback reports.

The Elite or Panel Referee will be his own harshest critic and will have been through the match video many times assessing his own performance.

So there is a full and comprehensive review of the match and every decision made, and those not made (sometimes as important) to identify development, interpretation, etc issues.

I am not sure what you mean by reprimand - that is not how either the elite, Panel or Society Referee development framework or pathways work. Neither in my experience do player and coach development work on reprimands, except for bringing the Game in disrepute. All errors and mistakes are opportunities to improve performance.

 

[Pegleg]

Now that McGrath has been cited, meaning that it was considered a red card offence, will there be a review/reprimand for the referee?

Other can answer better but I would say that it will form part of his review (even without the citing) and he will be asked to explain his actions / call. It will then be marked down a a critical incident or what ever else the assessor / advisor feels is appropriate. I'm sure that if it is felt that he failed in his duties that it will be noted and taken into account with all the rest of his reviews etc when considering future appointments.

 

[dave_clark]

Now that McGrath has been cited, meaning that it was considered a red card offence, will there be a review/reprimand for the referee?

i presume they are reviewed every game, and necessary actions taken.

note - this probably doesn't include a "reprimand" for one potentially incorrect call.

edit - or what pegleg said!

even more edit - what ST said...

 

[Pegleg]

Simon beat me to it. He also put the point across far better that I achieved.

 

[OB..]

Actually there were two questions:

"Player repeatedly stamps on ankle of opponent on the ground well away from the ball. Very C & O on the replay but gets only a warning!?!"

Both points are on topic!

Still no mention of style. Judgement by inference, yes, but not style.