Leinster v. Ulster stamping

[Jacko]

I maybe wrong but the TMO at elite level is there to offer advice when asked by the Referee, and within agreed protocols.
In the same way Appointed ARs at Elite down to Level 4 in Engish League and elsewhere in Society matches if appointed operate under the referee's management - hence there is a pre-match briefing.

At Elite, and National Panel levels there is a Match Observer, a Referee Coach, plus a Referee Manager, all of whom have access to match video and derived stats/analytics. Plus the two Club Coaches / DoRs will submit their own feedback reports.

The Elite or Panel Referee will be his own harshest critic and will have been through the match video many times assessing his own performance.

So there is a full and comprehensive review of the match and every decision made, and those not made (sometimes as important) to identify development, interpretation, etc issues.

I am not sure what you mean by reprimand - that is not how either the elite, Panel or Society Referee development framework or pathways work. Neither in my experience do player and coach development work on reprimands, except for bringing the Game in disrepute. All errors and mistakes are opportunities to improve performance.

If you mean the TMO is there to offer advice ONLY when asked, then yes, you're wrong!
Haven't seen the incident, but if the citing is correct and this should have been a RC, then the TMO should have advised Nigel that he should take another look on the big screen and challenged him if he was still not getting it correct. If the ref does not heed this challenge, that's fine - you can take him to water but not force him to drink.

In terms of "reprimand", I assume the PRO12 refs use the same World Rugby system we have for Aviva, EPRC and WR games, so this would be noted as a non-decision and any intervention (or not) by TMO discussed.

 

[Browner]

It seems to me as if the 'citing' safety net that picks up the things a referee might have missed or ignored is in fact working.

Is it being suggested that NO has a lower tolerance, or that he deliberately ignores such things ( if so then I'd add that I've seen him ignore stamping previously ...a Red scrum half from my memory bank, sorry can't recall the club game) , or that he isn't up to the level :holysheep: ...

Or what exactly ???

 

[Pegleg]

Still no mention of style. Judgement by inference, yes, but not style.

And as you are fully aware. The point is judge a ref on his application rather that sstyle it is more important. Especially as no one other than a few on here seem to have any complaint with his style. So I wonder why worry about an aspect of his "game" that is actually respected. Here we have something I regard as far more serious that is worthy of far more concern than an non existant issue.

 

[crossref]

Pegleg , but this particular thread isn't about Nigel Owens style! It's about whether he should have issued a RC for a stamp.
That's a matter of substance, I don't understand why you keep bringing style into this thread. No one else has mentioned it.

 

[Dickie E]

And as you are fully aware. The point is judge a ref on his application rather that sstyle it is more important. Especially as no one other than a few on here seem to have any complaint with his style. So I wonder why worry about an aspect of his "game" that is actually respected. Here we have something I regard as far more serious that is worthy of far more concern than an non existant issue.

I think everyone would agree that accuracy of decision making is more important than style.

In the same way that everyone would agree that world hunger is a bigger problem than Kim Kardashian's bum.

Doesn't mean, though, that KK's bum isn't a problem.

 

[Dickie E]

Some Citing Officers are very good at this.

Should I infer from this that some aren't?


It is interesting that a TMO, who has as much information as a citing officer, can only advise the referee whereas the citing officer can effectively overrule the ref.

Maybe because the citing process can be longer, more considered, involve discussions with others, etc.?

 

[Simon Thomas]

No that was not my inference at all. My comment was made based on the three Citing Officers I named were well known for their robust and aggressive style of play. I am sure all the Appointed Citing Officers at matches do the best job they can based on their remit and protocols defined for the match they are involved in.

A TMO is part of the Referee's match officials team on the day and reports to him, whereas a Citing Officer is part of the RFU Disciplinary organisation with totally different reporting lines and as you say significantly more review and decision time.

The Citing Officer is focussed on Potential Red Card offences only.

 

[Pegleg]

I think everyone would agree that accuracy of decision making is more important than style.

In the same way that everyone would agree that world hunger is a bigger problem than Kim Kardashian's bum.

Doesn't mean, though, that KK's bum isn't a problem.

And there really is the point. Kim Kardashian's bum is not a problem to anyone, in truth other than those who wish to make it so. I do not even know what she looks like.

People who make more of a fuss over a "celebrities" bum than world hunger have their focus in the wrong place. Ditto a referee's style over substance.

 

[Pegleg]

Pegleg , but this particular thread isn't about Nigel Owens style! It's about whether he should have issued a RC for a stamp.
That's a matter of substance, I don't understand why you keep bringing style into this thread. No one else has mentioned it.

We have two threads. One about a decision and one about style the style brought more debate that the substance. It just reflects a strange sense of priority. Just as we have moans about boot colours etc. I find it strange that Whne we have issues about refs (potentially) failing in their core duties. We can have a parallel debate about a non issue (at least as far as the rest of the rugby world is concerned).

 

[Pegleg]

My comment was made based on the three Citing Officers I named were well known for their robust and aggressive style of play.

Poachers turned gamekeepers?

 

[TheBFG]

Poachers turned gamekeepers?

I resemble that comment :wink:

 

[Dickie E]

I do not even know what she looks like.

mate, you need to get out more:

 

[Phil E]

Video here:

http://balls.ie/rugby/127849-video-jack-mcgrath-stamp/

 

[crossref]

it wasn't actually Nigel Owens refereeing then!
:wtf:

 

[RobLev]

well, he's been cited. Any video up on the web anywhere? I can't find any.

And apparently his defence is "But Sir, he did it too...".

 

[crossref]

Video here:

http://balls.ie/rugby/127849-video-jack-mcgrath-stamp/

hmm - it sure looks like a deliberate stamp on the ankle, miles from the ball, doesn't it...

 

[ChrisR]

it wasn't actually Nigel Owens refereeing then!
:wtf:

Nobody ever said it was. That's how myths get started!

 

[Browner]

They're wanting their player to receive consistency for what he did there.

So, best he gets a RC for the first stamp, a RC for the second and a RC for the 3rd.

Dirty cowardly cheap shot.

 

[crossref]

Nobody ever said it was. That's how myths get started!

well i certainly spent all that thread under a misapprehension: from post #3 and post #5 I thought we were talking about a NO incident...

what a strange thread then !

 

[ChrisR]

crossref,

what's so strange about a thread that starts with a question on citing of non-carded offences, veers off to NO's style, quick sidestep to TMO/referee communication, some background of citing officials, oblique reference poachers & gamekeepers and manage to include a Photo-shopped pic of KK's bum?

Rather normal for this site. Stay focused on the ball, crossref, and don't buy the dummies!