Managing the Scrum

bcm666

Brian Moore, Ex England International Hooker
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If you can get BCM666 down for a training night, make sure it's a big venue - I'd certainly travel to Winchester to attend.

I will gladly do a training night - just make sure it is a date that is free in my diary and that's it. If someone wants to organise this then just let me know.
 

Donal1988


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This may seem like a really stupid question but does a team actually have to "take the hit". Its a phrase I hear all the time. The concept seems to imply that both teams are at an obligation to engage as hard as possible. Or is it an urban myth along the lines of "you have to let him up".
 

Casey Bee


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This may seem like a really stupid question but does a team actually have to "take the hit". Its a phrase I hear all the time. The concept seems to imply that both teams are at an obligation to engage as hard as possible. Or is it an urban myth along the lines of "you have to let him up".

Yes, I hear people say 'they won't take the hit' but am not sure if this is a bit of sledging or what? Is it a technical thing?
 

dave_clark


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i suspect it means that, on engagement one team steps backwards trying to buy a FK for an early shove. "Take the hit" is a short explanation which probably started in a couple of games somewhere and is now widely used like "truck and trailer", "double movement" and "you've got to let him up" :)
 

Dixie


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This may seem like a really stupid question but does a team actually have to "take the hit". Its a phrase I hear all the time. The concept seems to imply that both teams are at an obligation to engage as hard as possible. Or is it an urban myth along the lines of "you have to let him up".

i suspect it means that, on engagement one team steps backwards trying to buy a FK for an early shove.
And it's only an issue if the referee ignores BCM666's good advice about ensuring the scrum is square and steady (and over the mark) before allowing the put-in. In my playing days back when Noah was a boy, the FRs would engage, there'd be a bit of left-shoulder, right shoulder, blue come forward a bit, and then the ball would be put in when all was square.

As BCM666 points out, the norm now is for the ball to be fed almost immediately the contact is made; if one team steps back, or doesn't match the power of the oppo's hit, then you get this call - "they have to take the hit, sir". It's a pre-emptive call to make the ref think twice about pinging an early shove.

Kevin, if you get this sort of thing starting to impact your games, tell the SH you don't want it in until you are satisfied that the scrum is square and steady, in accordance with Law 20.1(j)
(j) Stationary and parallel. Until the ball leaves the scrum half’s hands, the scrum must be stationary and the middle line must be parallel to the goal lines. A team must not shove the scrum away from the mark before the ball is thrown in.
Sanction: Free Kick
There is no obligation to "take the hit"; if the hit is not reciprocated, then the scrum must come back to the mark before the ball is thrown in. If the more powerful side is making life hard for the oppo before the ball is thrown in ... FK for pushing the oppo off the mark (aka early shove).
 

Ian_Cook


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Ian,

i have no idea what a straight arm press up is - can you enlighten me please.

In a normal press-up, you lay flat in the floor, face down and use bent arms by your sides to lift your torso off the ground. Easily done by most people.

However, try laying flat in the floor, face down with both arms stretched straight out in front of you i.e. "over" your head, palms down in contact with the floor about 18in apart.

Now push down on the floor without bending your arms (no use of knees allowed) and try to lift your body off the ground so that your torso comes off the ground with only toes and hands touching the floor.

I know, I know... its near impossible (unless you have the upper body strength of a weightlifter and the body weight of a feather duster). The reason for this is that the strongest muscles in the arm, the biceps and triceps are completely taken out of the picture, and the main arm muscles in play are the deltoid & rotator cuff muscles of the shoulder and the extensor and flexor muscles of the forearm, none if which are very effective in applying transverse forces.

It demonstrates (for non believers) that it really is nearly impossible for a prop forward with their "bind" arm fully outstretched, to apply downwards, sideways or upwards force on their opponent. Transverse forces are much, much harder to apply with a straight arm than with a bent arm.

If props are made to bind with their bind arms straighter, the only real strength they do have is the ability to contract their arm, and that pulls the opposing prop toward them. If both props THP and LHP on both sides have long binds, pulling their opponent toward them, this helps to lock the scrum and keep it up.

If props are prevented from binding with bent arms, their ability to apply transverse forces to their opponent is severely minimised , they cannot pull their opponent down, nor drive him up, and nor can they twist their opponent and drive him sideways to enable boring in.
 
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DrSTU


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Nowt to add apart from saying what an excellent thread this is. Cheers Brian and Co.
 

barker14610


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Thread of the year in my opinion. BCM666, if you are ever in Indiana your beer is on me.
 

Casey Bee


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BCM666. This is a really very informative thread that you have clearly taken some time to write and append. For me being new to refereeing it will take me time to absorb the information and translate it to what I am seeing on the pitch, but will no doubt be of great use for the future. Other referees additional input is also most useful. Thanks for your effort.

Anyone know of scrum video/dvd examples demonstrating this sort of action?

PS Brian do you do scrum coaching masterclasses?
 

didds

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PS Brian do you do scrum coaching masterclasses?

Dunno if Brian does, but without at all meaning to promote my own credentials above somebody with over 60 international caps in the front row, I do :)

didds
 

Simon Thomas


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I will gladly do a training night - just make sure it is a date that is free in my diary and that's it. If someone wants to organise this then just let me know.

I will discuss with KML1 - our Society Training Officer - and we will approach you direct BCM. Each 3rd Monday in month at Winchester RFC at 19:30. Maybe link with Ed Turnill or his equiv in our region ?

I agree with many comments above and usually at L5 down to L10 our guys do apply much of what you suggest, and are assessed on that basis.

Also have in mind that we have had regular scrum sessions from Lee Johnson (ex Coventry and England A, who BCM may have played with in Midlands Divisional team ?) Basingstoke's forwards coach, Al McHarg & Derek White (Alton & Petersfield coaches), and a few years ago Phil Keith-Roach came down.
Plus Gavin Williams (RFU Southern Coaching Officer and England Women's A forwards coach) has done sessions linked to his Prop Idol initiative (with big Jason L) for our Society.

The key is to link the players/coaches aims with referee interpretation & application of scrum laws - BCM, you could do a great job for us there.

BTW - Dixie - what makes you think Berkshire Refs would be invited to attend :wink: :D
 

didds

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The key is to link the players/coaches aims with referee interpretation & application of scrum laws - BCM, you could do a great job for us there.


I did something similar a couple of seasons ago for D&W WRT lineout ball and expectations and tactical approach. It went down well - especially my view on what constituted "advantage" following a defending side's early jump. Feedback was good and i was delighted that one ref of my aquaintance told me afterwards that he would change his view of reffing lineouts as a result!

This isn't to big myself up- because many coaches could have done what I did - but to illustrate that the way forward to indeed to get us all to understand each other's viewpoints and reasons.

Which is entirely the reason I come here :)

didds
 

Donal1988


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This might be kind of a stupid suggestion but would referees feel comfortable actually doing a scrummaging session with a local scrum coach. We get about 30 active referees weekly at out local meetings and have often done practical sessions on positioning.

I think actually getting into a scrum and appreciating a few of them would be an amazing learning experience. We have all hit a ruck and all ran and passed but few of us have played front row rugby.
 

Simon Thomas


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Donal - on the scrum specifically we have had club coaches L5 to L9 present to us, discuss /answeer questions, and this season have two FR present to physically demonstrate engagement & binds (with emphasis on body positions).

We encourage our members to attend club training, and if confident join in with scrum machine work.

In my playing days I did just that as a scrum half and went in as hooker at training to understand what he was having to cope with and what sort of put in process was best for him (straight of course).
 

stuart3826


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Donal, it's not a stupid suggestion at all. In my playing years I was a back. When I took my level one and two coaching courses I was taken out of my comfort zone and put in the scrum. I tried every position and it gave me a much better idea of what's going on in there!!!
 

Stuartg


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To BCM

Interesting that your calf gave you problems. It is a problem I have suffered from in the past - a tightness even after running around well warmed up. It's not a muscle pull because in a couple of days (or even the next day) I can go out and ref again. You might want to google Charlie Horse Cramps.

I've not had any this season and believe that is because I drink LOTS of water in the couple of hours before a match - at least 3 pints.

Hope this helps.

Stuart
 

Deeps


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To BCM

Interesting that your calf gave you problems. It is a problem I have suffered from in the past - a tightness even after running around well warmed up. It's not a muscle pull because in a couple of days (or even the next day) I can go out and ref again. You might want to google Charlie Horse Cramps.

I've not had any this season and believe that is because I drink LOTS of water in the couple of hours before a match - at least 3 pints.

Hope this helps.

Stuart

I have not had a single muscle strain or pull all season and I put this down to organisation so that I have time for a decent warm up and to stretch off my calves and hammies before a game. A bowl of porridge for breakfast, nothing for lunch and taking on water throughout the day contributes to this. Having adequate water on board is a must and helps the old grey cell CPU work a little faster too.
 

tim White


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nothing for lunch

I think I would pass out during the game if I had nothing at all for lunch. When playing I used to rely on a giant Mars Bar for nutritional purposes -usual diet at all other times except for a small Port and Lemon after the game:rolleyes:
 

Deeps


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I think I would pass out during the game if I had nothing at all for lunch. When playing I used to rely on a giant Mars Bar for nutritional purposes -usual diet at all other times except for a small Port and Lemon after the game:rolleyes:

I probably exceed norms in the porridge department which keeps me going until after the game, viz, one cup of Jordons lumpy porridge oats, pinch of salt, one cup of boiling water; one cup of green top milk all in a Pyrex bowl. Three minutes and 10 seconds in the microwave (650 Watts) then allow 5 minutes to finish cooking before adding a generous squeeze of runny honey. :wink:
 

Donal1988


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This season Ive really taken to having porridge on the morning of a game. Chopped walnuts, honey, banana, jam or berries really brighten them up.

Ive also found that a half time cup of tea works wonders. During one rugby game the groundsman brought me and my touchjudges a mug of tea and a few digestives. The biscuits did nothing for me but Ive since taken to brinigng a small flask of tea on the sideline for half time use and it really keeps me in it during the second half.
 
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