[Law] Marler grope

[Rich_NL]

It's a grey area. It has to be a sexual act to count as sexual assault - kneeing someone in the crotch or punching in the breast doesn't count. I can see both sides of the argument for whether it is or isn't. Ultimately it's semantics, but it's an emotive term that confuses the issue - there's a tendency to either think it's Really Serious because you apply the term "sexual assault" to it, or that it's inconsequential because "it's obviously not sexual assault".

It's a player grabbing another player's genitals to spark a rise. It's definitely a citable offence, though the 12 week minimum sanction for physical abuse appears to be for intentionally aiming to injure an opponent, as it falls under dangerous play; from what I've seen of the incident, "unsportsmanlike conduct" would be a much more appropriate charge.

 

[TheBFG]

Wish everyone would take a chill pill, When Vinnie Jones did it to Gazza, was there cases of "sexual assault" the following weekend at the kids 5-a-side tournament? When Marler squirted Hask with a bottle, did we have kids at the minis festival going down with hypothermia because they were too wet? At the end of the day, if the ref had seen it, he might have given a PK for ungentlemanly conduct, he certain wouldn't have sent him off, therefore no citing and no ban.

The bigger issue is Eddie Jones calling the ref a cheat, let's deal with that one!!!!!

 

[didds]

The bigger issue is Eddie Jones calling the ref a cheat, let's deal with that one!!!!!

the issue is why we are hell bent on bothering with pre and post match intervbviews which end up with banalties or stupid stuff that is of not real interest at all

 

[crossref]

It's a grey area. It has to be a sexual act to count as sexual assault - kneeing someone in the crotch or punching in the breast doesn't count. I can see both sides of the argument for whether it is or isn't. Ultimately it's semantics, but it's an emotive term that confuses the issue - there's a tendency to either think it's Really Serious because you apply the term "sexual assault" to it, or that it's inconsequential because "it's obviously not sexual assault".

It's a player grabbing another player's genitals to spark a rise. It's definitely a citable offence, though the 12 week minimum sanction for physical abuse appears to be for intentionally aiming to injure an opponent, as it falls under dangerous play; from what I've seen of the incident, "unsportsmanlike conduct" would be a much more appropriate charge.

In the sanctions table it does indeed come under unsportsmanlike conduct. So i think he may well get 12 weeks

If you saw it in your game you would give a PK ?

 

[Blindpugh]

Wish everyone would take a chill pill, When Vinnie Jones did it to Gazza, was there cases of "sexual assault" the following weekend at the kids 5-a-side tournament? When Marler squirted Hask with a bottle, did we have kids at the minis festival going down with hypothermia because they were too wet? At the end of the day, if the ref had seen it, he might have given a PK for ungentlemanly conduct, he certain wouldn't have sent him off, therefore no citing and no ban.

The bigger issue is Eddie Jones calling the ref a cheat, let's deal with that one!!!!!

I agree with you BFG about Uncle Eddie but Jo Marler has been cited.
I didnt think there was a previous case then I came across this -
https://www.the42.ie/ryan-wilson-testicle-grab-video-2556371-Jan2016/

Lee Dickson alleged Ryan Wilson grabbed his testicles. RW pleaded not guilty and video evidence was "not clear and obvious" so RW was cleared to play.

However, the evidence is clear and obvious and not "a load of b***cks" as Jo claimed

 

[didds]

I found something online about a London Irish player that got 6 weeks for knob twiddling

 

[Jz558]

I think Joe Marler is over thinking his bid to become a character. In support of Didds' stance, lots of things that used to happen on a rugby pitch, or in the bar afterwards, or on the bus home are just in no way acceptable now. To be honest they probably weren't acceptable then but no one listened. On the grounds that I've seen considerably worse sexual assaults on the field, bus or clubhouse, Marler's actions on Saturday didn't even register with me beyond thinking, "that's a bit old school". More shame me. We used to have a Captain who gave his half-time team talks whilst having a pee with the team standing in a circle round him. No one thought that was odd for some reason, we just assumed he had a weaker bladder than most. Also for unacceptable initiation ceremonies, listen to Matt Dawson's story and that's not dissimilar to the initiation at the club I played for at Colts level during the mid 80s.

 

[Blindpugh]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/51796122

I doubt many rugby fans will have watched this but Phillipa Tutliett - CH4 Female Builders, Women 7's International and Bristol Ladies summed Jo Marler's action as stupidity. PT (1.10 - 2mins) said players like this (Marler) are privledged to play in front of millions and have a responsibility to be role models not carryout acts like that.

My pre match talk whether u13 or over 60 is I have come to referee a game of rugby not football. How the FA deal with overpaid players like VJ and Gazza has nothing to do with the standards professional rugby players are expected to set for grassroots rugby players.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Again irrelevant. A tackle is legal on the pitch. Grabbing my balls is not. Had a plyer done that to me He 's not be using his "tackle " for quite a while. I'd not sort it and not in front of the referee either.

Ok so for every high tackle, every player player in the air. Every time there's a kick/punch/etc. Let's get the police involved. Is that what you're saying Mark?

Ok Let's explain it.


Not every high / late tackle or tackle in the air is intentional Some / many (Take your pick) are miss-judgements. If a tackle or punch or whatever was sufficiently "bad" the police can, and indeed, have become involved. So, for example, when on of my teams props was punched from behind the guilty player recieve a custodial sentence. I'd not expect a player misstiming a tackle to go to jail.

Well, I'm only going by what you said. (I'm paraphrasing), you said tackling someone in your work place is different than these guys work place. While you're right with that, it's not permitted to tackle high, late, with no arms. So these offences are not expected likewise kicking punching etc. As such as they're against the Laws and grabbing private parts is also against the LoTG then we should really have equal punishment. Yes or no? I'd say the French 3 should get a lengthier ban than Joe Marler might get.

Equal punishment? Why? The punishment should fit the crime. It should be equitable, not necessarily, equal.
I'll leave WR to set the tarrifs.

 

[crossref]

My pre match talk whether u13 or over 60 is I have come to referee a game of rugby not football. .

I'd be careful with that line, TBH .... many rugby players are also football fans. No point setting players against you before the game has even started ...

 

[Blindpugh]

I'd be careful with that line, TBH .... many rugby players are also football fans. No point setting players against you before the game has even started ...

Why? I used it for over 12 years and had nothing but nods, smiles and respect from players and coaches up to RFU L6 but let's not digress from this post Marler's grope (and citing).

 

[crossref]

Why, I used it for over 12 years and had nothing but nods, smiles and respect from players and coaches up to RFU L6.

Because some of them will also be football fans and no point starting an afternoon by dissing a sport they love.

Would you also include some negative comments about cycling? Cricket? Triathlon ?

Just seems unnecessary to me. Football is very popular you know !

Also one of things the public don't like about rugby is a perception that we look down on other sports, no point feedin that

 

[Blindpugh]

Because some of them will also be football fans and no point starting an afternoon by dissing a sport they love.

Would you also include some negative comments about cycling? Cricket? Triathlon ?

Just seems unnecessary to me. Football is very popular you know !

Also one of things the public don't like about rugby is a perception that we look down on other sports, no point feedin that[/QUOTE

It is a phrase I picked up from one of my mentors. I have refereed over 500 games and Assessors never commented only that I worked well with captains, players and coaches and there was no decent? I know many football referees and they say they wish they had the respect that rugby referees have from players and that a yellow card meant 10 minutes.

I played more cricket than rugby and I noticed there was a move to bring in Yellow Cards a couple of years ago because of the amount of appealing and trying to put pressure on umpires. Something the RFU is trying to clamp down on.

So we digress. Back to the original thread and Marler's grope (and citing).

To answer your question in first post. If I had seen Marler holding AWJ genitals it would have been a RC.

 

[SimonSmith]

Wish everyone would take a chill pill, When Vinnie Jones did it to Gazza, was there cases of "sexual assault" the following weekend at the kids 5-a-side tournament? When Marler squirted Hask with a bottle, did we have kids at the minis festival going down with hypothermia because they were too wet? At the end of the day, if the ref had seen it, he might have given a PK for ungentlemanly conduct, he certain wouldn't have sent him off, therefore no citing and no ban.

The bigger issue is Eddie Jones calling the ref a cheat, let's deal with that one!!!!!

It might just the Twitter streams I get, but yes, there were several Youth Coaches saying that, especially with younger kids, there was a rash of them trying to genital-grab.

It's a red card offence, and the Regulations lay out the sanctions.
Some of the commentators are still living in the Old Days, when some things were better and others weren't.

We should just move on and let the process work itself out.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

My pre match talk whether u13 or over 60 is I have come to referee a game of rugby not football. How the FA deal with overpaid players like VJ and Gazza has nothing to do with the standards professional rugby players are expected to set for grassroots rugby players.

I've read some of this sub-thread. and Whilst accepting I too have and do say similar things. We are, i nthe rugby fraternity, in danger of getting our own arses if our rose tinted comparrisions with our Association football friends.

Biggar, Sexton Farrell are three names and there are plenty of others who behave just like "those soccer oikes" We are very close to losing the moral high ground. That is if we have not already lost it. Players feigning injury trying to get players sent off (showing the card) . coaches like Pivac, Jones, Cheika etc and their pre / post match crap. Bloodgate / Sarries. I think we need to be a little more inward looking.

 

[Rich_NL]

In the sanctions table it does indeed come under unsportsmanlike conduct. So i think he may well get 12 weeks

If you saw it in your game you would give a PK ?

Of course, and a card. Probably a red one.

 

[timmad]

In Showbiz rugby with all the attention a penalty and perhaps a red card. On your local patch, a word with the 2 players, an apology, a handshake and make all the players aware that you won't tolerate any further instances - then a penalty.

 

[crossref]

In Showbiz rugby with all the attention a penalty and perhaps a red card. On your local patch, a word with the 2 players, an apology, a handshake and make all the players aware that you won't tolerate any further instances - then a penalty.

I think you might be missing the point a bit
Do that and you have tolerated it

 

[Zebra1922]

In Showbiz rugby with all the attention a penalty and perhaps a red card. On your local patch, a word with the 2 players, an apology, a handshake and make all the players aware that you won't tolerate any further instances - then a penalty.

On my local pitch it’s a RC no questions. Totally unacceptable conduct.

 

[SimonSmith]

In Showbiz rugby with all the attention a penalty and perhaps a red card. On your local patch, a word with the 2 players, an apology, a handshake and make all the players aware that you won't tolerate any further instances - then a penalty.

Just to be a devil: if the player was grabbed by a gay player would your position change? Or a gay player was grabbed?

I can't believe that you think that something with an entry point of 12 weeks is worthy of just a chat. 12 weeks puts it on a par with biting; is biting just a chat? It's the same as deliberate contact with the eyes?

Given where WR have the seriousness pegged, don't you think you may be a little off in your calibration?