[Law] More new Laws?

[Treadmore]

A still I have cropped from the powerpoint.

The text book application of the offside line being set. Ruck formed, referee sets the Offside line (by reference to something/somebody who knows what) and SH (rather than rucking players) coming in and doing a text book pick up and distribution.

And that's as good as it gets from WR! One example from the U20 RWC that will help all this confusion just melt away!


View attachment 3588

That clip caption omits reference to a tackle, which is in the ruck definition text in the slide:

[LAWS]
A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over
the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler).[/LAWS]

Is this trial just about the tackle situation? I had assumed that, otherwise it could be a bit chaotic!

Slightly off-topic, just before your screenshot we have Gold 14 off-feet:



the clip ends with penalty advantage to gold for red offside at the mono (duo?) ruck :sad:

 

[Dickie E]

Total numbers of breakdown turnovers across all four matches = 118 (30, 29, 28 and 31 over the four games in that order.)

Fascinating statistic. 4 games played in 3 countries in varying playing conditions. Turnovers in all games only vary between 28 & 31

 

[ChrisR]

Does anyone have the answer to this: If the first defending player to the tackle gets his hands on the ball will he have to release it if an opponent now joins the ruck.

 

[Dickie E]

Does anyone have the answer to this: If the first defending player to the tackle gets his hands on the ball will he have to release it if an opponent now joins the ruck.

No. He doesn't have to now, and won't have to when the change comes in. This change is solely about creating an offside line when 1 team chooses not to compete at the breakdown.

 

[Dickie E]

[LAWS]Ruck
Law 16
A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside lines are created. Players on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives, no hands can be used.
Rationale: To make the ruck simpler for players and referees.[/LAWS]

I'm unclear what this bit means => (tackled player, tackler).

Does that mean you need 3 players for a ruck - tackled player, tackler and arriving player?

What happens in the common situation where a tackle occurs but there is no tackler (ie tackle assist only)? By staying on his feet and going for the ball, does he create a ruck?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Fascinating statistic. 4 games played in 3 countries in varying playing conditions. Turnovers in all games only vary between 28 & 31

Even more fascinating is how even the figures were split

Brumbies v Hurricanes (12-18) total 30
Crusaders v Hurricanes (14-15) total 29
Stormers v Chiefs (15-13) total 28
Lions v Sharks (17-14) total 31

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

[LAWS]Ruck
Law 16
A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside lines are created. Players on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives, no hands can be used.
Rationale: To make the ruck simpler for players and referees.[/LAWS]

I'm unclear what this bit means => (tackled player, tackler).

Does that mean you need 3 players for a ruck - tackled player, tackler and arriving player?

What happens in the common situation where a tackle occurs but there is no tackler (ie tackle assist only)? By staying on his feet and going for the ball, does he create a ruck?

I assume it means when the player on feet over the ball and a tackler AND / OR tackled player.

My guess is their way of trying to eliminate the potential that a ruck could be formed when a ball is just on the floor (after a dropped ball/kick etc). eg Red 10 chips over the Blue defensive line and 12 red is first to get to the ball (which is on the floor and not moving). Instead of picking it up, Red 12 just stands over the ball thus creating a ruck, subsequent offside lines, and meaning no Blue player can either pick up the ball, kick the ball out of the "ruck".

Which would be ridiculous and I guess this is what they are trying to avoid but agree the slightly limited explanations are not 100% clear.

What about if a player goes to ground to collect a loose ball (eg 13 Blue in above scenario gets to ball first, and dives on it, Red 12 stands over that player, is that a ruck?)

 

[crossref]

That's a great question , if I stand over a loose ball, does that create a ruck ?
Has this Law ever actually been trialled , prior to going global

 

[didds]

If ...

- tackle made, BC and tackler on ground
- jackler arrives - sets "ruck". Off side line through his feet and tackled player on ground respectively for each side
- attacker support arrives and engages jacklerwho hasn;t managed to lift the ball, and is knocked off ti slightly but remains on feet. - ruck - offside lines respectively through both standing players feet.
- initial jackler elaves the ruck, team mate of ball carrier remains in place - ruck...

Now where is the tackeler's side's off side line? Through the tackled player's body now ie its moved forwards a metre or so?
(tackler has probably rolled away by now).

Cos if the offside line remains at where the jackler's feet WERE, another defender can only join the ruck bty being offside ie moving in front of the previously set offside line

didds

 

[Jolly Roger]

Reply to Rushford's post #24 (I thought that it would appear as a comment to his post rather than at the end of the conversation so apologies for it being out of sequence)

Thank you Rushford. I really enjoyed your post, as a hooker over the same time period I can relate to all you said and reading it brought back many happy memories. That is what rugby is all about.

Sanitising the game rather than enforcing the laws as they stand is not something that I am happy with. Hookers were smaller and more agile because they needed to move in the front row. This resulted in many hookers playing as an extra back rower in open play. Destroyed by Le Bulldozer.....all downhill in the front row since then.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

If ...

- tackle made, BC and tackler on ground
- jackler arrives - sets "ruck". Off side line through his feet and tackled player on ground respectively for each side
- attacker support arrives and engages jacklerwho hasn;t managed to lift the ball, and is knocked off ti slightly but remains on feet. - ruck - offside lines respectively through both standing players feet.
- initial jackler elaves the ruck, team mate of ball carrier remains in place - ruck...

Now where is the tackeler's side's off side line? Through the tackled player's body now ie its moved forwards a metre or so?
(tackler has probably rolled away by now).

Cos if the offside line remains at where the jackler's feet WERE, another defender can only join the ruck bty being offside ie moving in front of the previously set offside line

didds

Common sense (or at least mine) would suggest the offside line is across the field, perpendicular to touch line, drawn from the point of the ruck which is closest to each team's DBL. So, tackled player is on the floor, in a "long present", feet nearest the opposition DBL, hands nearest his own DBL, with a player from his team stood over him so that none of that player's body is closer to either DBL, then the offside lines are the tackled player's feet (side not in possession) and the player's finger tips (team in possession). Does that make sense?

 

[didds]

Does that make sense?

Yep. But that wasn't my question.

My question is what happens to the offside line when a previously engaged ruck player (o/s = hind feet) disappears leaving no teammates either (and thus no hindfoot). Does the offside line remain where it WAS or the now closest point to the ruck (possibly the ball carrier tackled onto the ground ) ? And if the formerthat means any defender joining the ruck has to be offside to do so ie be in fornt of the offside line through the now disappeared hind foot.

Now - I'd say common sense must mean the offside line moves forward when the jackler leaves. But life has shown me that what i think is common sense is not always shared by others (especially those further up the pyramid!)

So I am intrested in what others think should happen here.

didds

 

[ChrisR]

You first need to answer the question: In a mono-ruck where is the off-side line for the team without a player over the ball? Then you can consider players coming and going.

 

[didds]

Yep - I was admittedly assuming the rpeviously suggested "rearmost point even if that's the opposition".

Good point well made though Chris.

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

You first need to answer the question: In a mono-ruck where is the off-side line for the team without a player over the ball? Then you can consider players coming and going.

Perhaps answered here...

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20413-More-new-Laws&p=333547&viewfull=1#post333547

 

[ChrisR]

I think there are three possibilities:

1. Rearmost part of opponent - most sensible (therefore unlikely) as most visible point of reference

2. Mid-point of tackle - already a reference point but ambiguous moments after ruck forms

3. Ball - used as reference elsewhere but a poor choice here as it allows defenders big gain so no defenders would ever join unless they thought they could poach or counter ruck.

You think the authors thought of this, eh?

 

[Ian_Cook]

I think the most likely scenario is that the opponent's offside line will be a line through the back of that team's tackle gate. Its the idea with the most sense and the least questions.

 

[thepercy]

The same as if under old law there was a ruck and all opposition ruckers voluntarily left said ruck.

 

[ChrisR]

I think the most likely scenario is that the opponent's offside line will be a line through the back of that team's tackle gate. Its the idea with the most sense and the least questions.

Isn't that option #2, the midpoint of the tackle? What would be the visual reference?

 

[VM75]

Thanx, VM75 for raising this point. There is a bit of a contradiction here.

On one hand we should treat the mono-ruck as a ruck with the ruck ending when a player in an onside position retrieves the ball.

On the other hand the law specifically allows the ball to be picked up by the first arriving player, attacker or defender, until an opponent joins.

I think that until an opponent joins the ball should be available to be played in any manner and so the mono-ruck only sets offside lines.

This will ensure that defenders join or at least defend the channel directly behind the ruck.

The purpose of the law change is to prohibit defenders from having players behind the tackle. Before the change any player could play the ball by hand at a tackle no matter how long he had been parked over the ball.

One of the difficulties in guessing what the purpose of the law change is for anyone not involved in the process ....... is guessing.

If DickieE is correct [??] then IMMEDIATE is a huge red herring & it wasn't needed to be included in any draft.

Conversely by including immediate, it implies that non-immediate isn't permitted ?!

New Law could have said
An arriving player who is on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball provided they do so before an opposition player binds onto them.