My turn with the whistle

[spikeno10]

On Friday evening I took two calls, one sadly cancelling our Colts match giving me a Sunday off and a second asking me to referee for a local club who happened to be playing my club's Under 15s. They were in a muddle without a referee so I agreed.

Lots of checking back to review the correct age group changes and off I went.

The squads are at different level in their development. One full of county, SoR and higher level players and the other full of players who started this year. Whilst the contest for the ball at rucks and mauls was fierce from both sides this aspect of the game was very evenly matched. As indeed were the scrums and lineouts. The difference was the spacial awareness and running lines of the more experienced team. They moved the ball out wide quickly and scored a number of tries via a very fast winger.

There were two decisions I made which I've reviewed. The first was a yellow card. The weaker team had secured ball and deployed their forwards on a series of pick and drives which were very well controlled. They got to within 3 or 4 metres of the try line and were tackled to the ground. The defender released the man and was cleared out and a ruck formed. One of the defenders put his hands in, to which I called ruck hands off, he stayed, I called again. This was obviously slowing the ball down. On the 3rd call with still no release loud blast, time off. Explained my decision to captain and showed the card.

Awarded the penalty which the team set up to use their big runners for. The SH tapped it and darted. No-one watched him and he scrambled over for the try. There only points.

On reflection I wondered if the card was harsh. Speaking to the coaches afterwards they were happy with the decision but always good to review it.

The second decision was a penalty. This was at a scrum. Defending hooker made no attempt to strike the ball, this was after a couple of resets. His approach was to kick to kick the ball straight out of the tunnel. At this point I wanted the game to move away from another reset scrum so told him he had prevented a contest for the ball and sent him back 10. I think I got this one wrong.

Whilst the game was finished with a very one sided score, there was no showboating, flash points or anything else I had to deal with. I had a laugh with the lads during the game and was hugely impressed to see both squads having a laugh and joke as they sat together after the game.

I would appreciate your feedback on the two decisions please.

Thanks

 

[scrumpox2]

The carding seems clear enough.

It would be interesting to know why you doubt the penalty yourself. Were you able to determine that the hooker's actions were deliberate and not a mistimed strike? Under 20.8 c, d and e it depends on whether it was intentional or repeated.

As this is age grade rugby, the first time it's kicked out would be a reset scrum, so it's your chance to have a word with the offender and say that you're treating the first time as accidental but if there are repeats then you'll go to a free kick and then penalties. Once you've escalated to a penalty, further repeats would warrant a yellow card.

 

[Robert Burns]

Sounds like you had a good game, with regard to the kick through, you thought it was deliberate, and because of this penalty is the right call.

Hope you do it again some time, and maybe every week.

 

[Simon Thomas]

The defender released the man and was cleared out and a ruck formed. One of the defenders put his hands in, to which I called ruck hands off, he stayed, I called again. This was obviously slowing the ball down. On the 3rd call with still no release loud blast, time off. Explained my decision to captain and showed the card.

Well done Spike - a true & committed volunteer.

A well coached team with County, SoR etc players, defending just off try line and cynical slowing down of ball at ruck time - YC fully justified in my book (whether a L5 or Club Referee).

Ideally you should be making a preventative call as the hands go down, or at least as they move onto the ball. Once the hands are on the ball, he has done his job and release is already slowed down - advantage / PK time !
Once you are calling to get hands off, it is to late. By the time you make an "echo" or "parrot" call (he has been very effective in his delaying tactic). I would not recommend asking anyone the second let alone a third time - far too late and as an assessor it is a development area I would put on the report.

Aim to make early preventative calls before the 'event' if possible, call once as it happens at worst, and blow for PK (unless advantage is practical) it is after the event.

 

[spikeno10]

Thanks everyone.
My first role on a Sunday is to coach, this has been my hobby for the last 13 or so years and I still get a buzz from it.
However, if no-one was prepared to ref the game the lads won't have played and that was a no brainer.
Simon makes a good point about the player knowing what he was doing. That said he did it well. As for the hooker, I've coached this player at county and he is a very good hooker. On the day the two front rows were very closely matched which surprised all concerned but I was happy the action was a kick and not a failed strike for the ball. I'd moved back from the scrum to see the direction of the ball entering it and also to watch both the front row binding as well as where the flankers were as they were very fast. Wider view seemed and easier way of spotting stuff.

 

[Taff]

.... The second decision was a penalty. This was at a scrum. Defending hooker made no attempt to strike the ball, this was after a couple of resets. His approach was to kick to kick the ball straight out of the tunnel. At this point I wanted the game to move away from another reset scrum so told him he had prevented a contest for the ball and sent him back 10. I think I got this one wrong.

IIRC deliberately kicking the ball out of the tunnel is a FK offence - not a PK offence. I'm pretty sure it only turns into a PK offence if it's "repeated". Sorry Spike, I've just read the whole paragraph and can see he was "repeatedly" kicking the ball out of the tunnel.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Sorry Spike, but IIRC deliberately kicking the ball out of the tunnel is a FK offence - not a PK offence.

Howzabout kicking it back in the tunnel? As the SH in my game did on Saturday.

God knows why - their scrum was pants.

I gave a PK but later thought it should have been a FK - God they were rubbish.

 

[Taff]

Howzabout kicking it back in the tunnel? As the SH in my game did on Saturday. God knows why - their scrum was pants. I gave a PK but later thought it should have been a FK - God they were rubbish.

If the ball had come out of the tunnel and the SH just kicked it back into the tunnel, I would just reset it.

 

[Davet]

There are a number of posts in various threads abut refs not pinging set piece offences at Junior level, but rather resetting.

I appreciate that many new players are ignorant of law, and that skill levels are low - but by repeatedly letting them off the hook are we actually helping them? Would some "tough love" be more effective in the long run?

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

There are a number of posts in various threads abut refs not pinging set piece offences at Junior level, but rather resetting.

I appreciate that many new players are ignorant of law, and that skill levels are low - but by repeatedly letting them off the hook are we actually helping them? Would some "tough love" be more effective in the long run?

Actually my scenario was from an adult match (apologies I missed the forum subject and apologies for the inadvertant hijack)

 

[crossref]

There are a number of posts in various threads abut refs not pinging set piece offences at Junior level, but rather resetting.

I appreciate that many new players are ignorant of law, and that skill levels are low - but by repeatedly letting them off the hook are we actually helping them? Would some "tough love" be more effective in the long run?

I agree with this. I think many refs have a rather indulgent view of young players - of course they don't know the whole law book, but they know perfectly well the Laws that relate to their role.

my son plays SH and after asking him about quick taps (see other thread, when he told me 'people don't take them properly because most refs don't care, and when they do care you always get to take it again') I asked him about other Laws.

and hey presto it turns out he's just like every adult SH - he knows how to throw the ball in, he knows it must be straight, he knows where to stand when the other SH is putting the ball in, he knows where his offside line is, he knows how to take a quick tap, and all of these laws he breaks if he thinks he can get away with it (in one sense :sad: but in another sense )

by all means take the time to stop and explain the Laws to kids, especially if you think it's a genuine misunderstanding, but do give the PK as well - if nothing else that way you'll know that you have their attention...

 

[Taff]

If the ball had come out of the tunnel and the SH just kicked it back into the tunnel, I would just reset it.

There are a number of posts in various threads abut refs not pinging set piece offences at Junior level, but rather resetting .... by repeatedly letting them off the hook are we actually helping them? Would some "tough love" be more effective in the long run?

I agree with this.

Hang about; forget whether this was an U19 or adult game, why wouldn't you reset the scrum if the ball is accidentally kicked out of the tunnel and the SH kicked it back in? Which was the incident I referred to when I said I would reset it. I'm assuming here it wasn't an "intentional" or "repeated" kick out of the tunnel - LLP didn't say it was.

You can't play advantage if the ball is kicked out of the tunnel, so resetting the scrum is not a "soft" option - in that case it's the only option.

 

[crossref]

Hang on a minute; forget whether this was an U19 or adult game, why wouldn't you reset the scrum if the ball is accidentally kicked out of the tunnel and the SH kicked it back in? Which was the incident I referred to when I said I would reset it.

You can't play advantage if the ball is kicked out of the tunnel, so resetting the scrum is not a "soft" option - in that case it's the only option.

yes, I agree on that particular one... I had moved on to the more general issue which I think was being raised by Davet..

 

[Davet]

The hard answer is that kicking it back in is an offence... Discuss.

 

[scarletjack]

on the same lines , if the ball comes out through the side of the scrum between the second row and the wing forward and then the wing forward pulls it back in with hand or foot , is that a FK or PK ?

 

[Taff]

The hard answer is that kicking it back in is an offence... Discuss.

If the ball's come out of the tunnel, the SH can't kick it back in. It's got to be either a reset or a sanction if kicked out deliberately or repeatedly. You can't play advantage if the ball's come out of the tunnel.

on the same lines , if the ball comes out through the side of the scrum between the second row and the wing forward and then the wing forward pulls it back in with hand or foot, is that a FK or PK ?

I would say if the ball was out of the scrum, that's a FK offence for bringing the ball back into the scrum.

And if the ball was still in the scrum, a PK offence for handling in the scrum.

Is it in or out? That's our job to decide.

 

[scarletjack]

Thanks for that TAFF

 

[spikeno10]

Having organised a very good referee for our Colts game this Sunday I get a call this morning advising me he has sadly injured himself and can't do the game.
After many calls / emails unsurprisingly I can't find a free referee on the weekend before Christmas.
So, with the agreement of our opposition I'll be having another go in the middle this weekend. It's becoming a bit of a habit.
It's a friendly match and both sides tend to get on well, having grown up playing rugby together and the like. Actually looking forward to it, that is assuming no snow / frost throwing spanners in the works.

 

[Dixie]

Enjoy! We'll have you joining the Society in a twelvemonth!

 

[SimonSmith]

No such thing as a friendly!

As countless other threads have referenced - treat this as though it's a serious game with something at stake. "Pre Christmas friendly" are words that scare me.