[Ruck] New tactics being deployed from new law changes

[thepercy]

Right, so my earlier suggestion is valid. The defending team can defuse the OP's suggestion, and prevent the kick chasers from making a quick ruck to catch retiring players offside to get a cheap 3 pointer, by dropping straight to ground so that there cannot be a tackle. No tackle = no one man ruck.

The ball carrier who goes to ground to avoid being tackled, will now need to release the ball to the man on their feet.

 

[Pinky]

The ball carrier who goes to ground to avoid being tackled, will now need to release the ball to the man on their feet.

I think that has long been the case

 

[thepercy]

I think that has long been the case

right, but it makes going to ground to avoid being tackled a questionable tactic

 

[Ian_Cook]

right, but it makes going to ground to avoid being tackled a questionable tactic

Not so.

Player drops to ground (Law 14) opponent arrives and jackles. Player must release.

Player is brought to ground (Law 15) team mate of tackler arrives and jackles, Ruck forms & player must release.

Under the new tackle law the highlighted bit puts all the retiring teammates of the grounded player offside. By dropping to the ground, there is no gate, and there can be no offsides so long as the grounded player's team-mates don't join the melee, so the jackler can be cleaned out from any direction. Even if the jackler wins the ball and passes, the receiver (ball carrier) can be tackled by retiring teammates of the grounded player. Under the new Law, at a tackle, those retiring players would be PK for offside.

 

[Dickie E]

so the jackler can be cleaned out from any direction.

I doubt that any sane referee would actually allow that in practice.

IMO, the intent of this change applies when there is a player on the ground with the ball (irrespective of whether or not he was tackled) and an opponent jackling

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

Not so.

Player drops to ground (Law 14) opponent arrives and jackles. Player must release.

Player is brought to ground (Law 15) team mate of tackler arrives and jackles, Ruck forms & player must release.

Under the new tackle law the highlighted bit puts all the retiring teammates of the grounded player offside. By dropping to the ground, there is no gate, and there can be no offsides so long as the grounded player's team-mates don't join the melee, so the jackler can be cleaned out from any direction. Even if the jackler wins the ball and passes, the receiver (ball carrier) can be tackled by retiring teammates of the grounded player. Under the new Law, at a tackle, those retiring players would be PK for offside.

Does the first clearing out player (non-jackler) creates a ruck as soon as he is in contact with the jackler? So the benefit may only be marginal? I think a catching player would be much better served to fight to stay on his feet (as he would have done previously) to give his teammates time to get closer to him and back behind the ball rather than drop straight to ground and risk a turnover from holding on to the ball.

 

[didds]

I doubt that any sane referee would actually allow that in practice.

IMO, the intent of this change applies when there is a player on the ground with the ball (irrespective of whether or not he was tackled) and an opponent jackling

I haven't seen any guidance from the ARU, but the RFU guidance makes it quite clear the one-man-ruck only happens at a tackle. Now, I sympathise with Dickie's view here but I would expect RFUland referees to applying this distinction.

didds

 

[didds]

? I think a catching player would be much better served to fight to stay on his feet (as he would have done previously) to give his teammates time to get closer to him and back behind the ball rather than drop straight to ground and risk a turnover from holding on to the ball.

... and that is what I'd be coaching players to be aware of and to work towards. Whether it will make much difference will remain to be seen.

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

I doubt that any sane referee would actually allow that in practice.

Ball kicked ahead, defender goes down on the ball, attacking player arrives fractionally ahead of retiring defender, attacking player gets hands on and retiring defender immediately tackles him to the ground from the direction he was retiring from. This is perfectly legal as there is no gate, and happens routinely in Super Rugby and Mitre 10 Cup.

IMO, the intent of this change applies when there is a player on the ground with the ball (irrespective of whether or not he was tackled) and an opponent jackling

Ahem, 'fraid not.

RFU Guidance Notes:
The “one man” ruck only applies after a tackle and that normal ruck law applies to all other situations
e.g. player voluntarily going to ground, ball on ground in open play etc. The offside line is formed when a
player from either team arrive over the ball

 

[Christy]

Ball kicked ahead, defender goes down on the ball, attacking player arrives fractionally ahead of retiring defender, attacking player gets hands on and retiring defender immediately tackles him to the ground from the direction he was retiring from. This is perfectly legal as there is no gate, and happens routinely in Super Rugby and Mitre 10 Cup.

Question if i may .
Above scenario was acceptable in practice last season & this season with ammended laws .
As in theory , a ruck still never commenced .
My question is , where worded ATTACKING PLAYER HAS HANDS ON BALL .
So a deffender whilst running back can now tackle attacking player . From attacking side ( open play )

I would be reluctant to let deffender make a tackle , unless the ball was either in possesion of attacking player , as in lifted ,,or it was in advanced stage of being lifted from floor .

Im just asking , is hands on ball , enough of a criteria to allow same person be tackled

 

[Ian_Cook]

Question if i may .
Above scenario was acceptable in practice last season & this season with ammended laws .
As in theory , a ruck still never commenced .
My question is , where worded ATTACKING PLAYER HAS HANDS ON BALL .
So a deffender whilst running back can now tackle attacking player . From attacking side ( open play )

I would be reluctant to let deffender make a tackle , unless the ball was either in possesion of attacking player , as in lifted ,,or it was in advanced stage of being lifted from floor .

Im just asking , is hands on ball , enough of a criteria to allow same person be tackled

Why would it not be?

If the player was in the act of picking up a loose ball in General Play and has his hands on the ball, is he liable to be tackled?

How about if he is picking up the ball ½m from the opponent's goal-line? Does any would be defender have to wait until the player lifts the ball off the ground before tackling him?

 

[beckett50]

Question if i may .


Im just asking , is hands on ball , enough of a criteria to allow same person be tackled

Definitions:
Possession
"This happens where a player is carrying the ball (or attempting to bring it under control) or the team has the ball in tis control; for example the ball in one half of a scrum or ruck is in that team's possession

I would argue that hands on the ball is not - using the above definition - possession and so the player cannot be tackled.

However, to bind upon that player and drive him away from the tackle/ruck then there is no problem.

In reality, let the situation breathe and see what happens

 

[didds]

in essence the question is "what is the difference between being tackled and being cleared out - except the latter potentially leaves the ball behind.

It also highlights that in open play (ie no tackle, loose ball etc) a ruck could be formed (as it "always could") by a "defender" running back towards his own DBL clearing out an "attacker" and in so doing coming into contact over the ball . They;'d potentially create a ruck of course with offsides lines stitching their own team up ! Though it may still be the best solution (last defender etc)

didds

 

[Phil E]

Definitions:
Possession
"This happens where a player is carrying the ball (or attempting to bring it under control) or the team has the ball in tis control; for example the ball in one half of a scrum or ruck is in that team's possession

I would argue that hands on the ball is not - using the above definition - possession and so the player cannot be tackled.

However, to bind upon that player and drive him away from the tackle/ruck then there is no problem.

In reality, let the situation breathe and see what happens

If you put your hands on the ball then you are attempting to bring it under control, otherwise why do it?

 

[beckett50]

If you put your hands on the ball then you are attempting to bring it under control, otherwise why do it?

PHIL, I see the "attempting to bring it under control" as the juggling that often occurs when the pass is not great.

 

[Ian_Cook]

PHIL, I see the "attempting to bring it under control" as the juggling that often occurs when the pass is not great.

It cuts both ways.

I'm not sure I see any valid reason to give a free pass to a player with his hands in the ball in open play.

For mine, hands on = you have the ball.

 

[ChrisR]

. . . the exception being ruck and scrum.

 

[Rich_NL]

Just for clarity, for me... Red kick way downfield and have 14 and 15 chasing. Blue 15 catches and is instantly tackled by red 14. As soon as red 15 arrives to pick up the ball, the ruck is formed by a player being over the ball, yes?

So because it's a ruck offside line, the rest of the blue team are offside until a) red 15 has run 5 metres or passed, but not kicked (law 11.8)

or b) until they pass the offside line, where the ball was picked up?

If red 15 picks the ball and goes for a drop goal (or any kick), he's safe from being tackled unless blue overtakes him and comes back for the tackle. Same for chip-and-chase. But running with the ball doesn't have much benefit, as any chasers behind him are almost immediately over the ruck offside line.

Am I thinking clearly on this?

 

[crossref]

Just for clarity, for me... Red kick way downfield and have 14 and 15 chasing. Blue 15 catches and is instantly tackled by red 14. As soon as red 15 arrives to pick up the ball, the ruck is formed by a player being over the ball, yes?

So because it's a ruck offside line, the rest of the blue team are offside until a) red 15 has run 5 metres or passed, but not kicked (law 11.8)

or b) until they pass the offside line, where the ball was picked up?

If red 15 picks the ball and goes for a drop goal (or any kick), he's safe from being tackled unless blue overtakes him and comes back for the tackle. Same for chip-and-chase. But running with the ball doesn't have much benefit, as any chasers behind him are almost immediately over the ruck offside line.

Am I thinking clearly on this?

I think the tricky area is where red 15 picks up the ball, and then passes it : because any blue player tackling the new ball carrier is now in the position of being a 'lazy runner' -- even though the pass technically renders him onside, lazy runners aren't allowed to benefit from being a lazy runner.

(of course they aren't literally lazy, they are probably running as fast as they can, but that's the term usually used for players who are still moving back to a ruck to get themselves onside)

 

[OB..]

Just for clarity, for me... Red kick way downfield and have 14 and 15 chasing. Blue 15 catches and is instantly tackled by red 14. As soon as red 15 arrives to pick up the ball, the ruck is formed by a player being over the ball, yes?

So because it's a ruck offside line, the rest of the blue team are offside until a) red 15 has run 5 metres or passed, but not kicked (law 11.8)

or b) until they pass the offside line, where the ball was picked up?

If red 15 picks the ball and goes for a drop goal (or any kick), he's safe from being tackled unless blue overtakes him and comes back for the tackle. Same for chip-and-chase. But running with the ball doesn't have much benefit, as any chasers behind him are almost immediately over the ruck offside line.

Am I thinking clearly on this?

This is uncomfortably close to the scenario that caused an earlier ELV (which created an offside line at the tackle) to be withdrawn after a couple of matches.