[Golden Oldies] Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

Not Kurt Weaver


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Its sad that you actually think thats funny.

You disgust me!

no, no , no Crossref wasn't searching for humor. He was challenging my statement about possessing guns. He was using absurdity to disprove my point. Crossref has a good point, mosque goers should not be expected to carry guns at worship. Unfortunately, the mosque is a soft target.
 
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crossref


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Its sad that you actually think thats funny.

You disgust me!
Gosh you really are disagreeable

I wasn't making a joke , I was highlighting the absurdity of US gun lobby who frequently say that eg teachers should have guns to protect themselves from school shootings, and householders should have guns to protect themselves from burglars etc etc

Funnily enough I have not heard them arguing to arm mosque goers . .. but that would be the logic, wouldn't it ?

Perhaps you should pause for thought before lashing out with your insults (and btw never get a gun yourself , you are far too hot tempered )
 
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SimonSmith


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Tom (21 yrs old) punches Jimmy.
He's charged with assault.
Its his first offence of any kind.
He's found guilty, discharged without conviction and fined $1000.

From your perspective, he is now never, ever allowed to work in any employment, ever again, for the rest of his life?

That is a very good way of throwing a young man on the scrap heap by driving him into a life of crime. You just created a serious problem for all his future victims for the next few decades until he's caught, at which point you will have cost the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of dollars to incarcerate him... good work!!

I guess you are against rehabilitation?

If he's found guilty, I don't understand how he doesn't have a conviction.
Part of my issue is the recency effect. Would I hire him soon after his act of violence and conviction? Nope. A good few years afterwards and he has demonstrated learning and consistency of behavior? Yeah, likelier.

But in this situation? Not so much
 

thepercy


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gun-totin', racist 'merica, especially in peckerwood countryQUOTE]

Me thinks you have been reading the tabloids too much.:usa:

I could generalize about all NZers being Kiwi eating sheep f@ckers, but that would be wrong....
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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gun-totin', racist 'merica, especially in peckerwood countryQUOTE]

Me thinks you have been reading the tabloids too much.:usa:

I could generalize about all NZers being Kiwi eating sheep f@ckers, but that would be wrong....

TBH, by your punctuation, I'm not sure if you mean:

New Zealanders that eat kiwis and f### sheep, or

Kiwis that eat people that f### sheep, or

Sheeo eat kiwis and New Zealander F### these sheep


Anyway, I don't think New Zealanders eat the kiwis that are their nickname, but they may eat kiwis that are in fruit salad. No sheep involved in eating. Sheep only involved in the f thing
 

Ian_Cook


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Gosh you really are disagreeable

I wasn't making a joke

It looked like a joke to me; a joke in disgusting taste.

Perhaps you should pause for thought before lashing out with your insults


What insult?

Saying you disgust me is not an insult!


(and btw never get a gun yourself , you are far too hot tempered )


I am a gun owner. Have been for over 40 years.

(and to answer NKW's obvious next question, I was in the Air Force at that time, and I kept my guns in the Base Armoury.
 

Ian_Cook


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gun-totin', racist 'merica, especially in peckerwood country

Me thinks you have been reading the tabloids too much.:usa:

I could generalize about all NZers being Kiwi eating sheep f@ckers, but that would be wrong....


Nothing to do with the tabloids (I don't read them anyway, I generally read respectable US newspapers websites - New York Times, Washington Post etc

Since you you live in America, go ask a Black person or a Hispanic or an LGBTQI person what its like for them living in America right now with the homophobic & misogynist Racist-In-Chief in The White House.
 
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Not Kurt Weaver


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Nothing to do with the tabloids (I don't read them anyway, I generally read respectable US newspapers websites - New York Times, Washington Post etc

Newspapers websites. I don't know why that is funny. Is that an oxymoron? Kinda like secular values.

Since you you live in America, go ask a Black person or a Hispanic or an LGBTQI person what its like for them living in America right now with the homophobic & misogynist Racist-In-Chief in The White House.

You forgot some groups. Muslim, women, and immigrants or illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants, another oxymoron. And don't forget the USWNST.

I'll ask the USWNST what it is like living in America. I've called Alex Morgan several times this morning. Oddly, I can longer leave messages.
 
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L'irlandais

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I genuinely don’t get the USA’s fascination with firearms.
This BBC article on the subject suggests it’s cultural, but that only leaves me more perplexed.

Isn’t it more a $ thing?[LAWS]The annual revenue of the gun and ammunition manufacturing industry stands at $13.5bn.[/LAWS]Some folks are getting rich and don’t want to stop getting richer, whatever the cost to North American society.
 
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Not Kurt Weaver


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I genuinely don’t get the USA’s fascination with firearms.
This BBC article on the subject suggests it’s cultural, but that only leaves me more perplexed.

Isn’t it more a $ thing?[LAWS]The annual revenue of the gun and ammunition manufacturing industry stands at $13.5bn.[/LAWS]Some folks are getting rich and don’t want to stop getting richer, whatever the cost to North American society.

I suggest it is fear.

A comparison of UK to USA would require equal demographics. I would also, without looking suggest, the average IQ is higher in UK, but I'm guessing. That is also a factor to gun ownership either positively or negatively.

The $ thing, thru supply and demand, also makes guns affordable.

The BBC article is impactful, but liars figure and figures lie. It is cultural alright, simply look at black homicide rate is US or suicide rate amongst white middle age males. Something is awful, and I don't think anyone knows how to fix it.
 

SimonSmith


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I genuinely don’t get the USA’s fascination with firearms.
This BBC article on the subject suggests it’s cultural, but that only leaves me more perplexed.

Isn’t it more a $ thing?[LAWS]The annual revenue of the gun and ammunition manufacturing industry stands at $13.5bn.[/LAWS]Some folks are getting rich and don’t want to stop getting richer, whatever the cost to North American society.

It's because of the 2nd Amendment, which has been abused in its interpretation over the years.

The idea of letting the people arm themselves to be able to defend themselves against a tyrannical government was brilliant in its day. Now? Less so
 

Ian_Cook


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I genuinely don’t get the USA’s fascination with firearms.
This BBC article on the subject suggests it’s cultural, but that only leaves me more perplexed.

Isn’t it more a $ thing?[LAWS]The annual revenue of the gun and ammunition manufacturing industry stands at $13.5bn.[/LAWS]Some folks are getting rich and don’t want to stop getting richer, whatever the cost to North American society.


Here is a brief explanation of why Americans are obsessed with guns.... With thanks to Michael Moore


It all boils down to one word..... FEAR!
 

damo


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If he's found guilty, I don't understand how he doesn't have a conviction.
Part of my issue is the recency effect. Would I hire him soon after his act of violence and conviction? Nope. A good few years afterwards and he has demonstrated learning and consistency of behavior? Yeah, likelier.

But in this situation? Not so much

RE the bolded bit.

A 'discharge without conviction' is a sentence that a judge in NZ can hand down in criminal cases. It is often described (in my circles at least) as a s106 order because that is the relevant section of the Sentencing Act. It is legally treated the same as an acquittal.

The jurisidiction to make a s106 order is found in s107 of the Sentencing Act, which reads:
[LAWS]107 Guidance for discharge without conviction
The court must not discharge an offender without conviction unless the court is
satisfied that the direct and indirect consequences of a conviction would be out
of all proportion to the gravity of the offence.
[/LAWS] (emphasis added)

The point is that where a person has committed an offence, but were to receive a conviction for said offence, the consequences of this conviction would be so detrimental to the person compared to how bad the offence was, the judge can elect to convict, but then remove that conviction from the record. A person is often still sentenced and punished under a s106 order (like a fine, community service and/or reparation) but they do not get a criminal record.

The section has various uses. It is used most often where someone's career depends upon that person not having a conviction, and it is felt that to deprive that person of their career is a disproportionate penalty compared to what they did. All sorts of people routinely get s106 orders, such as nurses, teachers, bus drivers, students etc. By definition you can only get it for minor offences. A criticism made of it is that it is used by the rich and famous to get off offences, but I believe that is perception rather than reality.

By discharging Reece without conviction the judge effectively said that the consequences of a conviction for DV (likely never playing rugby anywhere again) is too greater sentence for what was quite a minor offence in the scheme of things.

For example, I had a client (in another jurisdiction) who got convicted for assault (throwing a lunchbox at his then partner). He successfully argued that while he admitted he had thrown the lunchbox, to convict him and make him lose his job was a disproportionate punishment. I note that he still had to pay a fine and had the mandatory protection order put against him - he was punished commensurate to his offence and no more. He did not have a particularly glamorous job.

Does the USA not have similar laws?
 
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damo


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Tom (21 yrs old) punches Jimmy.
He's charged with assault.
Its his first offence of any kind.
He's found guilty, discharged without conviction and fined $1000.

From your perspective, he is now never, ever allowed to work in any employment, ever again, for the rest of his life?

That is a very good way of throwing a young man on the scrap heap by driving him into a life of crime. You just created a serious problem for all his future victims for the next few decades until he's caught, at which point you will have cost the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of dollars to incarcerate him... good work!!

I guess you are against rehabilitation?

I never had you down as a Bleeding Heart Liberal Ian.


(For the avoidance of doubt, I heartily approve of your post)
 

SimonSmith


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Sorry to be cynical, but that reasoning is the same that a number of judges use over here for nice young men who have done a bad thing but because of who they are and what they can do get a soft sentence; see also female medical students at Oxford.
 
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