NO on forward pasess

crossref


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It is a forward pass if: the arms of the player passing the ball move towards the opposition's dead-ball line.

Except: in a strong adverse wind, when the ball is blown backwards after leaving the hands?

another two sentence definition but again different from all the rest .. and OB disagrees with it.

I rest my case. Its a complex Law that is very difficult to sum up (and which, amazingly, we don't even al agree on)
 

crossref


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As the well-known Australian/WR video demonstrates, the ball can travel forward over the ground and not be a throw forward.

yes, but it can't travel backward over the ground and yet stilll be a forward pass. (which according to your definition, OB, could be the case)
 
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Dickie E


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yes, but it can't travel backward over the ground and yet be a forward pass. (which according to your definition could be the case)

CR, are you harping on about the esoteric situation where a player is running towards his/her own dead ball line? If so, you're creating more heat than light.
 

crossref


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CR, are you harping on about the esoteric situation where a player is running towards his/her own dead ball line? If so, you're creating more heat than light.

it's not that esoteric, it probably happens in most elite games - where there is a lot of kicking

One player catches the ball running toward own DBL, and passes it to his team mate.
Obviously it's not a forward pass but because he has slowed down the backward velocity of the ball (= increased the forward velocity of the ball) then by OB's physics based definition it would be. (a weakness of physics based approach)

The only point I was making really is that it's very difficult to sum up the Law in one or two simple sentences -- which is why the four or five attempts on this thread are very different -- and even contradictory.

I think WR's approach is probably the best attempt- look at the arms.
 
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Dickie E


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I think WR's approach is probably the best attempt- look at the arms.

and even that will let you down. Think of the player who gets wrapped and driven backwards a nano-second after he's offloaded the ball. Looks like a forward pass but isn't
 

OB..


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yes, but it can't travel backward over the ground and yet stilll be a forward pass. (which according to your definition, OB, could be the case)
How? What gave rise to the +4 you claimed earlier?
 

crossref


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How? What gave rise to the +4 you claimed earlier?

A player running toward his own goal line who makes a flat pass has reduced the backward velocity of the ball (to zero)
It's not s forward pass.
 

didds

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The direction the ball travels is not relevant to the thrown forward law. As per the definitions in the LotG, the direction the arms move is the determining factor.

and if you'd asked me a week ago Id haev 100% supported you. In fact I still 100% support you - with the caveat that NO expressly says that is not what they do _now_ (in that chat with BCM666 linked to at the OP). If we wish to be pedantic to be fair to NO he says "hands" not "arms" ...

didds
 

Flish


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This is actually surprisingly easy, a forward pass is the one I as ref call as forward, based on all manner of calculations that I'm not really consciously thinking about. On average 50% of the people on the pitch will disagree with me, that's ok, that's rugby.
 

crossref


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This is actually surprisingly easy, a forward pass is the one I as ref call as forward, based on all manner of calculations that I'm not really consciously thinking about. On average 50% of the people on the pitch will disagree with me, that's ok, that's rugby.

I think this works perfectly well in the community game

But in the pro game when the TMO has been asked to check if a pass was forward ... Not so much. For that we need clear parameter
 

OB..


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A player running toward his own goal line who makes a flat pass has reduced the backward velocity of the ball (to zero)
It's not s forward pass.

In order to change the forward velocity of -10 to 0,the player must give the ball a velocity in the opposite direction.

A flat pass makes no change to the forward velocity. If it starts at -10, it remains at -10. (Earlier you produced a +4 from somewhere.)

Is the player he passes to between him and the DBL? I find your description very confusing.
 

OB..


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and if you'd asked me a week ago Id haev 100% supported you. In fact I still 100% support you - with the caveat that NO expressly says that is not what they do _now_ (in that chat with BCM666 linked to at the OP). If we wish to be pedantic to be fair to NO he says "hands" not "arms" ...

didds
AIUI NO is describing the technique used to decide if a pass is forward; he is not defining such a pass. The definition remains that a pass must not go forward relative to the passer (as opposed to relative to the ground).
 

OB..


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I think this works perfectly well in the community game

But in the pro game when the TMO has been asked to check if a pass was forward ... Not so much. For that we need clear parameter
They could use Hawkeye.
 

Flish


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I think this works perfectly well in the community game

But in the pro game when the TMO has been asked to check if a pass was forward ... Not so much. For that we need clear parameter

But going back to the podcast, NO was advocating a clear and obvious reason to bring it back, so the TMO can check whilst play goes on. As Brian said, if it needs more than two replays is it clear and obvious? Do they nee a degree in physics? Do they need to know wind speed? I don't think so. The good ref and TMO combos are managing to make these sort of decisions without stopping the game - I do honestly think it can be that simple
 

OB..


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But going back to the podcast, NO was advocating a clear and obvious reason to bring it back, so the TMO can check whilst play goes on. As Brian said, if it needs more than two replays is it clear and obvious? Do they nee a degree in physics? Do they need to know wind speed? I don't think so. The good ref and TMO combos are managing to make these sort of decisions without stopping the game - I do honestly think it can be that simple
C&O is all we have in the community game. At international level with ARs, TMOs, and technical aids people are entitled to expect a little more precision. However top level games are played to very fine margins, which makes it harder to judge with more close decisions.

Too many people (including a lot of players) do not understand the law properly and measure a pass by its path over the ground. Such people use slomo to "prove" a pass was forward.
 

Flish


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C&O is all we have in the community game. At international level with ARs, TMOs, and technical aids people are entitled to expect a little more precision. However top level games are played to very fine margins, which makes it harder to judge with more close decisions.

Agree, but even NO was calling for clear and obvious in some decision making, scrum sanction decisions been one
 

crossref


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In order to change the forward velocity of -10 to 0,the player must give the ball a velocity in the opposite direction.

A flat pass makes no change to the forward velocity. If it starts at -10, it remains at -10. (Earlier you produced a +4 from somewhere.)

Is the player he passes to between him and the DBL? I find your description very confusing.

A player is running toward his own goal line.
Velocity -10

As he crosses the 22m line he passes the ball along the 22m line to a team mate.

Forward velocity of the ball =0

It's not a forward pass , even though he has changed the velocity of the ball from -10 to zero
 

Wedgie


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Barnsey mentioned the forward past thing in the podcast that was mentioned on here a few weeks ago referring to referee-TMO interactions.

The example was Slade's try against Ireland (from 3:07 here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=926MDAqzkbI).

May clearly received the ball closer to the Ireland goal line than from where Slade passed it. But when May received the ball, Slade was still in front of May as he had carried on running at the same(?) speed.

WB was saying that the referee group looked at this pass post-match and all agreed it was clearly not a forward pass - but that he was thankful that it was not referred on the day as it would have been an absolute nightmare to explain to the fan on the street that it was not a forward pass.

(I'm going to see if I can save this clip to my phone for those post-match bar conversations about why I didn't disallow that try for the "forward pass" :biggrin: )
 

DocY


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A player is running toward his own goal line.
Velocity -10

As he crosses the 22m line he passes the ball along the 22m line to a team mate.

Forward velocity of the ball =0

It's not a forward pass , even though he has changed the velocity of the ball from -10 to zero

Really? That's not my understanding. I thought a throw forward was simply relative to the thrower. The situation you describe (which, TBF, I don't think I've ever seen) sounds like that.
 

thepercy


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I think that any pass that travels backward over the ground .. ie toward the throwers own DBL cannot be a forward pass, irrespective of the direction the arms move , and irrespective of whether the thrower added or subtracted to the forward velocity of the ball.

Why do you think this? Even after the (paraphrased) definition was provided to you? Do you accept that a pass that goes towards your opponents DBL can be not thrown forward?
 
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