Not retiring 10

[Wedgie]

My second ever match as ref and I think most things went OK, but Blue were trying to befuddle me at every opportunity. One situation that I hadn't experienced before (as a player) was as follows - Green penalty for whatever, taken quickly and tackled by Blue. 2nd penalty given for not retiring 10, but Blue contested this saying that Green had passed the ball to a second player so they were entitled to tackle the new ball carrier without having retired. I stuck to my guns with the second penalty having made my decision, but I don't know if Blue were correct.

Thoughts?

 

[ddjamo]

what did you find in the law book?

 

[Wedgie]

Nothing about it that I could find in Law 21

 

[Davet]

So I assume that was another penalty 10m forward for dissent.

 

[Dixie]

what did you find in the law book?

Bloody hell, ddjamo - the guys first post ever and you tell him we can't be bothered to save him the effort of looking it up? Shame on you!

Welcome Wedgie - I'd guess ddjamo's blood sugar levels are a bit low: he probably hasn't finished his 30th breakfast pancake yet! Feel free to wade in with whatever questions are bothering you - the Yanks don't have to answer if they feel a newbie shouldn't be asking questions that could be answered from a read of the law book (they're wrong).

The relevant law is 21.7. It says (where relevant) that the opposing players:

[LAWS](a) Must run from the mark. The opposing team must immediately run towards their own goal line until they are at least 10 metres away from the mark for the penalty kick, or until they have reached their goal line if that is nearer the mark.
(b) Must keep running. Even if the penalty kick is taken and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep running until they have retired the necessary distance. They must not take part in the game until they have done so.
(c) Kick taken quickly. If the penalty kick is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retire, they will not be penalised for this. However, they must continue to retire as described in 21.7(b) above or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has run in front of them, before they take part in the game.[/LAWS]

So we see that your decision was correct, and the offenders were (at best) mistaken in their belief that a pass would allow them to get on with things without retiring the full 10m. I suspect, actually, that they were getting confused with law 11.3 (offside in general play):

[LAWS]In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.
(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.
(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.[/LAWS]

 

[Wedgie]

Aaah, Thanks Dixie. I wasn't really aware of the passing piece in 11.3 (b)

 

[Wedgie]

It was a very polite "But Sir, I was under the impression...." and between the whistle being blown and the 2nd mark being made so not delaying anything - *another* 10m would have been very harsh I feel

 

[Mike Selig]

Dixie is being magnanimous. It is my belief they weren't simply mistaken but trying to shake your confidence in your decision, so well done for sticking to your guns (and of course you were right!)!

Welcome also.

 

[Davet]

It was a very polite "But Sir, I was under the impression...." and between the whistle being blown and the 2nd mark being made so not delaying anything - *another* 10m would have been very harsh I feel

Polite it may have been, but what did he expect you to do?

He should know that you will not change the decision, indeed the Law prevents you from so doing.

So what was the purpose of his gentle insistence that you were wrong?

Was it to establish himself as more knowledgable than you, and to try to dominate you mentally?

Players don't need to scream and shout to do that, indeed subtle is better.

If you really feel that it was not worth a sanction then simply tell him to be quiet and retire the 10m NOW!

 

[didds]

So what was the purpose of his gentle insistence that you were wrong?

Possibly so that they could get away with it next time would be my guess.

didds

 

[ChrisR]

As this was only wedgie's second match as a referee then I suspect that the questioning player was thinking that 11.3 applied. This is a very common. When quick taps are likely I ask any player who is 10 from the mark to yell "I'm on! Back to me!" which helps sort out who can come forward and defend, putting the other (hopefully retiring) players onside.

 

[Phil E]

As this was only wedgie's second match as a referee then I suspect that the questioning player was thinking that 11.3 applied. This is a very common. When quick taps are likely I ask any player who is 10 from the mark to yell "I'm on! Back to me!" which helps sort out who can come forward and defend, putting the other (hopefully retiring) players onside.

Am I 10 Sir?

No! (based on, if you have to ask, then you know you aren't).

 

[robe]

It was a very polite "But Sir, I was under the impression...." and between the whistle being blown and the 2nd mark being made so not delaying anything - *another* 10m would have been very harsh I feel

I think this a delaying tactic perfected by experienced captains to us less experienced refs. It starts of as "please sir, was that penalty for ....." at the start of the game, builds to "please sir, what was that penalty for?" and achieves its aim with "please sir, can you explain that desicsion", just when the opposition want to take a quick tap 10m from the try line and you stop the game to explain the descision. And when I realised what the captain was doing I felt a bit like "i've been had". I asked a more senior ref about how to deal with this and he said that if the captain wants to talk to you, let him do so, but don't stop the game - he'll soon realise you are having none of it. If only it was that easy!

 

[Phil E]

I think this a delaying tactic perfected by experienced captains to us less experienced refs. It starts of as "please sir, was that penalty for ....." at the start of the game, builds to "please sir, what was that penalty for?" and achieves its aim with "please sir, can you explain that desicsion", just when the opposition want to take a quick tap 10m from the try line and you stop the game to explain the descision. And when I realised what the captain was doing I felt a bit like "i've been had". I asked a more senior ref about how to deal with this and he said that if the captain wants to talk to you, let him do so, but don't stop the game - he'll soon realise you are having none of it. If only it was that easy!

Tell the captain in the pre-match brief that you only want him to speak to you (with questions) when the ball is dead, and that this does not include when a quick PK or FK is available.

 

[crossref]

someone on another thread said that his prematch brief to capt contains
- do you plan to take quick tap penalties when the chance arrives?
- he obviously says 'yes'
- in that case: there's no time for any questions from you at a PK, need to wait till ball is dead, OK?

I quite liked that idea.

 

[TheBFG]

I don't, it's likely to be the offending side wanting to ask the Q's, wait until the ball is dead!

 

[Taff]

I don't, it's likely to be the offending side wanting to ask the Q's, wait until the ball is dead!

Crossrefs points I guess is that the captain will reliase that if he wants to take a quick PK, that the oppose will want to take a quick one as well.

 

[mjmiller]

" Am I 10 sir?"

I always say no - 1 more metre please - on the grounds that they will soon learn what 10 metres looks like !

"It's for you to do it and me to judge "

 

[Davet]

If you always say 1 more metre then what do you do if they are only 5m?

I always think that having a rule of thumb that you always apply is never a good idea. - each case on it's merits is harder work but delivers better results.

Usually...

 

[mjmiller]

If you always say 1 more metre then what do you do if they are only 5m?

I always think that having a rule of thumb that you always apply is never a good idea. - each case on it's merits is harder work but delivers better results.

Usually...

Sorry! change that to MOST times - 5 metres is obvious, however 9 times out of 10 I guarantee the ones that ask will be 9 metres away when they ask !