Offside in dead ball area

[Dan Cottrell]

One from my district meeting last night:

Blue player just inside his dead ball line kicks it.

One of his team mates on the try line catches it and then kicks to touch.

What is the call?

(PS, I, and some others said: there is no offside LINE in the dead ball area, but there is offside)

 

[crossref]

blue player offside, PK to Red 5m out from tryline.

 

[pwhaling]

11.1 a) A player can be offside in the in-goal.

In front of the kicker, PK.
Here's my question:
Except for a being infront of the kicker, is there any other ways to be offside in-goal?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Hi Dan

Spot on - there is offside In Goal.

Look at the good old Law Book. As this is General Play start at 11.1 (a) and apply 11.1 (b) & 11.4 (a) in this instance. X PK where he caught it/kicked it X. (Oops - thanks crossref, Friday lunch with wine, I got confused.) PK 5m back into field of play as crossref says.

Also look at 22.6 - a scrum, ruck and maul can only take place in the field of play - so once in-goal they cease to exist as do any offside lines as you correctly said.

 

[crossref]

Hi Dan

Spot on - there is offside In Goal.

Look at the good old Law Book. As this is General Play start at 11.1 (a) and apply 11.1 (b) & 11.4 (a) in this instance. PK where he caught it/kicked it. .

but that was in goal -- so PK 5m back from the try-line, in line where the offside player caught the ball.

 

[didds]

Here's my question:
Except for a being infront of the kicker, is there any other ways to be offside in-goal?

In front of the team mate that knocks on, heads or knees a bouncing ball.

didds

 

[Simon Thomas]

but that was in goal -- so PK 5m back from the try-line, in line where the offside player caught the ball.

where does it say that in the Laws ?

 

[crossref]

In front of the team mate that knocks on, heads or knees a bouncing ball.

didds

the only time I have ever seen it, was a player in front of a team mate who charged down a kick.

so -- defender kicked from inside his own goal, but was charged down by an oncoming attacker, and ball went forward from the attacker to the attacker's team mate, deeper in goal, who fell on the ball and claimed a try.

It was so bizarre and unexpected that it caught me by surprise and I am ashamed to say I awarded the try :sad:
oddly no one complained, I think the players were as confused as I was . I think I said something lame like 'you can't be offside from a charge-down in the in-goal'. it's the sort of wierd thing that might work if said confidently.

 

[crossref]

where does it say that in the Laws ?

[LAWS]21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’ goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement[/LAWS]

 

[didds]

ah - of course!

doh - i was only considering the defence. Top call CR. (not the awarding of the ry though ;-)

didds

 

[Simon Thomas]

[LAWS]21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’ goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement[/LAWS]

see baove edit ! thank you.

 

[Womble]

Simon!!!!!!!! I thought better of you!

 

[Taff]

... Blue player just inside his dead ball line kicks it. One of his team mates on the try line catches it and then kicks to touch.

Did the kicker kick it straight to his team mate? Were there opponents close by? Ie did he "deprive them of an advantage" I think the phrase is.

If the kicker wellies it straight into his offside team mate, it could be argued that it's an accidental offside. And if there are no oppos close by who could have taken advantage of the situation, then wouldn't you just give a scrum? If there were oppos who could have grabbed the ball and scored, then I guess it's a straight scrum / PK option .... both 5m out, as you can have neither in-goal.

TBH I think it would depend on the score, mood of the game etc; in other words if the oppos are losing by 50 points, I'd give the scrum / PK option but if the oppos were winning by 50 points and I thought it was accidental, I'd give a scrum - opposition throw in. No doubt somebody will now throw a hissy fit. :biggrin:

Simon!!!!!!!! I thought better of you!

I could be all to pot on this, but it's Friday and I suspect it has been a very very good lunch. :biggrin:

 

[Davet]

If the kicker wellies it straight into his offside team mate, it could be argues that it's accidental offside

If the ball strikes the offside player then you could give accidental offside - if he catches it then that is hardly an accident. It may be instinctive, and you may at some levels go with the scrum, but in the main I would see a PK.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Simon!!!!!!!! I thought better of you!

Apologies for letting the side down.

It has been a very long week with little sleep due to Sandy taking out our global data centres in NYC and New Jersey for 48 hours, so we had to manage a full Disaster Recovery service out of London and LA.

Now all back up and running in NYC/NJ so we had a long lunch and I am a little "tired & emotional", so wasn't concentrating earlier.

 

[Accylad]

This is a scenario we put to all referees at their County Badge exam. It is one that many struggle with. As well as the offside penalty there is a VERY high probability of a penalty try as the offside winger is likely to prevent an attacking player catching and grounding.....

 

[Dixie]

This is a scenario we put to all referees at their County Badge exam. It is one that many struggle with. As well as the offside penalty there is a VERY high probability of a penalty try as the offside winger is likely to prevent an attacking player catching and grounding.....

I wonder if OB would argue that it's unrealistic in such circumstances to expect the offside defender to stand aside, say After You Claude! and allow the attacking player to catch and score? Wouldn't the defender be much better off playing the ball, and hoping the referee sees the unfairness of it all?

 

[Blackberry]

I wonder if OB would argue that it's unrealistic in such circumstances to expect the offside defender to stand aside, say After You Claude! and allow the attacking player to catch and score? Wouldn't the defender be much better off playing the ball, and hoping the referee sees the unfairness of it all?

Many refs would be looking at a Penalty Try and Yellow Card for such lack of control in such an important defending zone. I reckon I would, its killing a golden opportunity.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I agree, certainly in any League, Merit Table or Cup match.

PT option is likely, and so is a YC but it could be harsh (but required to be considered under IRB/RFU guidance).

If a YC was not given, I would have to discuss it post-match with the referee and suspect most of the L5s would put their hand up - to get to Panel you have to do it by the book, once there.................well ask KML1, Jacko and Womble :biggrin:

 

[Womble]

I wonder if OB would argue that it's unrealistic in such circumstances to expect the offside defender to stand aside, say After You Claude! and allow the attacking player to catch and score? Wouldn't the defender be much better off playing the ball, and hoping the referee sees the unfairness of it all?

Children!! now now, could be the naughty step for you two!